Re: Does linux support my new widescreen monitor

  • Thread starter Thread starter sully1999@gmail.com
  • Start date Start date
dennis@home wrote:
>
> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fd6r8o$n3h$1@aioe.org...
>> dennis@home wrote:
>>>
>>> "Stephan Rose" <nospam@spammer.com> wrote in message
>>> news:EMidnXilcNHyf2vbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>> Any system that is modifiable by the user is inherently only as
>>>> secure as
>>>> the user using it. No amount of UAC popups or passwords can compete
>>>> against a user that willingly installs malware.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you think you can explain that to alias?
>>> He thinks linux is secure.
>>
>> No, I just think it's much MORE secure than Windows is all. Nothing is
>> infallible. With the slippery slope that Vista is taking Redmond, as a
>> computer user for business and pleasure, I guess I am a bit excited
>> about not having to put up with sliding down slopes.
>>
>
> That is not what you keep telling people here.

If you reread my posts, you will see that I say that Ubuntu is not a
*prone* to viruses and malware as Windows is.

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes
 
Alias wrote:
>
> If you reread my posts, you will see that I say that Ubuntu is not a
> *prone* to viruses and malware as Windows is.

I think you mean Linux is more "supine."
 
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:11:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
> news:Oq9i2Vj$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
>
>>> A user shouldn't really need to research to see if an OS supports a
>>> standard display mode.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then why are users constantly told here that many of their problems are
>> due to their lack of research?
>
> There is a big difference between expecting an OS to support a standard
> operating mode and expecting it to support every bit of odd hardware.

Well on that note, Vista does not out of the box support my nVidia 8800
GTX which definitely is not in the "odd hardware" category. The best
choice of a screen resolution that Vista gave me was 1024x768 on a
1600x1200 monitor.

Ubuntu supports it out of the box and instantly gives me the correct
resolution.

Vista, I needed to hunt down a beta driver to make it work. Having to use
Beta drivers on a production machine 6 months after an OS' release is
pathetic.

Now one could blame nVidia for this, but then again, nVidia had full
support for Linux for their 8800 GTX cards from day one and Ubuntu 7.10
will recognize it out of the box. If I didn't need full 3D Acceleration I
could even just run the open source driver and not even bother clicking
the "enable" button next to the nVidia proprietary driver. Would save a
mouse click or two during the install process.

So if Linux is fully supported, XP is fully supported, but 6 months down
the line Vista drivers are still in a Beta stage...to me, that points to
more of a problem with Vista than anything else.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>> cord.
>>>
>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>> for many.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things get
>> easier all the time.
>
>
> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up getting
> Beryl to work on Debian for example.

One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A quick
visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people can have
doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck apparently...

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:

> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>>
>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>>> cord.
>>>>
>>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>>> for many.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things get
>>> easier all the time.
>>
>>
>> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up getting
>> Beryl to work on Debian for example.
>
> One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A quick
> visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people can have
> doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck
> apparently...

No two ways. And I agree. But getting high performance Video cards
working is a damn sight easier on XP because the installers are
better. Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole - you need to recompile
the latest NVidia drivers using a set version of the compiler, for
example, when changing kernels.

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=101723&sid=ee1ce9d8a0d2bdc079993f49ee87136b


--
Siempre surgen emergencias cuando un gobierno desea fabricarlas..., y en
una emergencia, suelen romperse las reglas.
--- Isaac Asimov
 
"Stephan Rose" <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> wrote in message
news:uO-dnUkdCuY6LWrbRVnyhAA@giganews.com...
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:11:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
>> news:Oq9i2Vj$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>
>>
>>>> A user shouldn't really need to research to see if an OS supports a
>>>> standard display mode.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then why are users constantly told here that many of their problems are
>>> due to their lack of research?
>>
>> There is a big difference between expecting an OS to support a standard
>> operating mode and expecting it to support every bit of odd hardware.
>
> Well on that note,

Not on that note at all really but if you must bring odd hardware into a
discussion about software..

> Vista does not out of the box support my nVidia 8800
> GTX which definitely is not in the "odd hardware" category.

It certainly isn't in the common hardware either.

> The best
> choice of a screen resolution that Vista gave me was 1024x768 on a
> 1600x1200 monitor.
>
> Ubuntu supports it out of the box and instantly gives me the correct
> resolution.
>
> Vista, I needed to hunt down a beta driver to make it work. Having to use
> Beta drivers on a production machine 6 months after an OS' release is
> pathetic.

It is.. why did you buy such crap hardware? Didn't you have a choice? Why
didn't you choose something that did what you wanted?

>
> Now one could blame nVidia for this, but then again, nVidia had full
> support for Linux for their 8800 GTX cards from day one

I bet they don't have *full* support.
There is nothing on linux to use the full capability of the card.
If you think there is maybe you would let us know.

> and Ubuntu 7.10
> will recognize it out of the box. If I didn't need full 3D Acceleration I
> could even just run the open source driver and not even bother clicking
> the "enable" button next to the nVidia proprietary driver. Would save a
> mouse click or two during the install process.
>
> So if Linux is fully supported, XP is fully supported, but 6 months down
> the line Vista drivers are still in a Beta stage...to me, that points to
> more of a problem with Vista than anything else.

What it probably means is that they took an old driver and bodged it for
linux.. easy to do as there are *no applications* that are going to use all
the cards features.
With windows they need to support the full 3D feature set and get it
reasonably quick or gamers aren't going to buy it.
 
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:00:31 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

> "Stephan Rose" <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> wrote in message
> news:uO-dnUkdCuY6LWrbRVnyhAA@giganews.com...
>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:11:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
>>
>>> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Oq9i2Vj$HHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>>
>>>>> A user shouldn't really need to research to see if an OS supports a
>>>>> standard display mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then why are users constantly told here that many of their problems
>>>> are due to their lack of research?
>>>
>>> There is a big difference between expecting an OS to support a
>>> standard operating mode and expecting it to support every bit of odd
>>> hardware.
>>
>> Well on that note,
>
> Not on that note at all really but if you must bring odd hardware into a
> discussion about software..
>
>> Vista does not out of the box support my nVidia 8800 GTX which
>> definitely is not in the "odd hardware" category.
>
> It certainly isn't in the common hardware either.
>
>> The best
>> choice of a screen resolution that Vista gave me was 1024x768 on a
>> 1600x1200 monitor.
>>
>> Ubuntu supports it out of the box and instantly gives me the correct
>> resolution.
>>
>> Vista, I needed to hunt down a beta driver to make it work. Having to
>> use Beta drivers on a production machine 6 months after an OS' release
>> is pathetic.
>
> It is.. why did you buy such crap hardware? Didn't you have a choice?
> Why didn't you choose something that did what you wanted?

Crap hardware? The 8800GTX is the highest performance card available so I
chose what I wanted: The highest performance card I could buy because
that is what I needed.

>
>
>> Now one could blame nVidia for this, but then again, nVidia had full
>> support for Linux for their 8800 GTX cards from day one
>
> I bet they don't have *full* support. There is nothing on linux to use
> the full capability of the card. If you think there is maybe you would
> let us know.

Actually yes they have *full* support. And yes, there is software on
linux to use the full capability of the card, such as the CAD/CAM package
I am looking to buy: Pro/Engineer. Most certainly not a toy.

I also write software that requires 3D Acceleration via OpenGL.

>
>> and Ubuntu 7.10
>> will recognize it out of the box. If I didn't need full 3D Acceleration
>> I could even just run the open source driver and not even bother
>> clicking the "enable" button next to the nVidia proprietary driver.
>> Would save a mouse click or two during the install process.
>>
>> So if Linux is fully supported, XP is fully supported, but 6 months
>> down the line Vista drivers are still in a Beta stage...to me, that
>> points to more of a problem with Vista than anything else.
>
> What it probably means is that they took an old driver and bodged it for
> linux.. easy to do as there are *no applications* that are going to use
> all the cards features.

Sorry but that's simply not true. The nVidia driver has support for every
feature of the card. Sorry to burst your poor little bubble. There isn't
a single feature of the card that is available to me under Windows that
is not available to me under Linux.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:56:16 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>>>> cord.
>>>>>
>>>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>>>> for many.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things
>>>> get easier all the time.
>>>
>>>
>>> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up
>>> getting Beryl to work on Debian for example.
>>
>> One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A
>> quick visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people
>> can have doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck
>> apparently...
>
> No two ways. And I agree. But getting high performance Video cards
> working is a damn sight easier on XP because the installers are better.
> Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole - you need to recompile the latest
> NVidia drivers using a set version of the compiler, for example, when
> changing kernels.

No you don't. Well, Debian Maybe.

Ubuntu? No.

I've been running 7.10 for about a month now and gone through at least 5
or more kernel updates.

Number of times I've recompiled the nVidia kernel module: ZERO.

It's handled automatically when the kernel is updated. I don't have to do
a single thing. I *haven't* needed to do a single thing on two computers
both running 7.10 for the same length of time, both running nVidia
drivers, both having seen the same number of Kernel changes.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:

> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:56:16 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>>>>> cord.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>>>>> for many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things
>>>>> get easier all the time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up
>>>> getting Beryl to work on Debian for example.
>>>
>>> One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A
>>> quick visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people
>>> can have doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck
>>> apparently...
>>
>> No two ways. And I agree. But getting high performance Video cards
>> working is a damn sight easier on XP because the installers are better.
>> Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole - you need to recompile the latest
>> NVidia drivers using a set version of the compiler, for example, when
>> changing kernels.
>
> No you don't. Well, Debian Maybe.
>
> Ubuntu? No.
>
> I've been running 7.10 for about a month now and gone through at least 5
> or more kernel updates.
>
> Number of times I've recompiled the nVidia kernel module: ZERO.

You're right. I forgot about the restricted driver manager now. It is a
BIG improvement.

>
> It's handled automatically when the kernel is updated. I don't have to do
> a single thing. I *haven't* needed to do a single thing on two computers
> both running 7.10 for the same length of time, both running nVidia
> drivers, both having seen the same number of Kernel changes.

--
En el futuro no se usará MODEM para acceder a Internet.
-- Vinton Cerf. (1934) Padre de Internet. (Fundador de Internet
Society).
 
Stephan Rose wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:56:16 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>>>>> cord.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>>>>> for many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things
>>>>> get easier all the time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up
>>>> getting Beryl to work on Debian for example.
>>>
>>> One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A
>>> quick visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people
>>> can have doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck
>>> apparently...
>>
>> No two ways. And I agree. But getting high performance Video cards
>> working is a damn sight easier on XP because the installers are better.
>> Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole - you need to recompile the latest
>> NVidia drivers using a set version of the compiler, for example, when
>> changing kernels.
>
> No you don't. Well, Debian Maybe.
>
> Ubuntu? No.
>
> I've been running 7.10 for about a month now and gone through at least 5
> or more kernel updates.
>
> Number of times I've recompiled the nVidia kernel module: ZERO.
>
> It's handled automatically when the kernel is updated. I don't have to do
> a single thing. I *haven't* needed to do a single thing on two computers
> both running 7.10 for the same length of time, both running nVidia
> drivers, both having seen the same number of Kernel changes.
>

The "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile
expert", "X specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server admin", "newsreader
magician" and "hardware maven" Hadron Quark, aka Hans Schneider, aka Damian
O'Leary has these problems because he is running a liveCD only

So he needs to scrounge the net for all his problems he "has"
Some "small errors" might creep in that way
--
Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware
 
On 2007-09-23, dennis@home <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>
> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
> news:u5Zj%23gh$HHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>> cord.
>>>
>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge for
>>> many.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things get
>> easier all the time.
>
> Yes Ubuntu sets 1280x768 on my widescreen monitor automatically.
> Shame its a 1280 x 720 lcd panel.
> Just as well I can change it but I wonder how many newbies would fail?
> XP and Vista get it right BTW.

XP could also just be "getting it right by accident". That
happens on occasion when a confluence of malfunctions happen to line
up right. If Ubuntu is setting up a monitor to a certain resolution
I would expect that the monitor is giving it some indication that it
should be set to that resolution.

In an absence of any real information, it's hard to say really.

--
If you think that an 80G disk can hold HUNDRENDS of |||
hours of DV video then you obviously haven't used iMovie either. / | \
 
Pennywise@DerryMaine.Gov wrote:
> "dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>
>> running on fixed hardware and none of this compatibility afford a computer.
>> Its worth remembering that incompatible hardware is the price we pay for
>> having so much choice and it could have been so different if M$ had sold
>> exclusive rights to windows/dos to IBM, no affordable clones, no internet as
>> we know it, no linux..
>
> And then AmigA would of ruled the world as it was ment to.
>
>


True enough, always makes me smile when they accuse MS of stealing from
Apple, it was actually Workbench and Intuition they stole :)
 
Hadron wrote:
> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>> cord.
>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>> for many.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things
>> get easier all the time.
>
>
> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up getting
> Beryl to work on Debian for example.



Don't need to look it up, I have it running alongside the one I'm typing
on. BTDT



> For some "it just works".


Probably not on Debian actually but see this is what you are missing.
Beryl, Compiz and a couple of others are NOT finished products and the
community does NOT release them pretending that they are. I said, which
you and Dennis apparently cannot interpret, "Getting easier", I did not
say perfect...



> Fortunately the "advocates" here are not in charge of prioritising bug
> fixes. If so, we would all be tweaking the MBR and xorg.conf from now
> until eternity.

I have had far worse challenges trying to get things to work under Vista.
 
Stephan Rose wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:56:16 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Stephan Rose <nospam.noway@screwspammers.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:20:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>>>> In article <od6dnb_MGJVC5WvbRVnyvQA@giganews.com>,
>>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Very true. Plugging the cable into the connector on the back of the
>>>>>>> video card and then pushing the power button on that monitor is an
>>>>>>> extremely difficult task. Oh and, don't forget to plug in the power
>>>>>>> cord.
>>>>>> Getting the video modes right can sometimes be a bit of a challenge
>>>>>> for many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it can but Ubuntu is easier than most and these kinds of things
>>>>> get easier all the time.
>>>>
>>>> But a quick visit to Google reveals all sorts of issues. Look up
>>>> getting Beryl to work on Debian for example.
>>> One can always find a problem with anything if one looks for it. A
>>> quick visit to google can also reveal all sorts of issues that people
>>> can have doing a simple task such as breathing! Breathing must suck
>>> apparently...
>> No two ways. And I agree. But getting high performance Video cards
>> working is a damn sight easier on XP because the installers are better.
>> Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole - you need to recompile the latest
>> NVidia drivers using a set version of the compiler, for example, when
>> changing kernels.
>
> No you don't. Well, Debian Maybe.
>
> Ubuntu? No.
>
> I've been running 7.10 for about a month now and gone through at least 5
> or more kernel updates.
>
> Number of times I've recompiled the nVidia kernel module: ZERO.
>
> It's handled automatically when the kernel is updated. I don't have to do
> a single thing. I *haven't* needed to do a single thing on two computers
> both running 7.10 for the same length of time, both running nVidia
> drivers, both having seen the same number of Kernel changes.
>


For Debian look up "Envy".
 
"Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
news:uqO3FVy$HHA.5868@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Pennywise@DerryMaine.Gov wrote:
>> "dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>>
>>> running on fixed hardware and none of this compatibility afford a
>>> computer. Its worth remembering that incompatible hardware is the price
>>> we pay for having so much choice and it could have been so different if
>>> M$ had sold exclusive rights to windows/dos to IBM, no affordable
>>> clones, no internet as we know it, no linux..
>>
>> And then AmigA would of ruled the world as it was ment to.
>>
>>
>
>
> True enough, always makes me smile when they accuse MS of stealing from
> Apple, it was actually Workbench and Intuition they stole :)

Apple stole it from Xerox even down to the one button mouse.
How a thief has the nerve to accuse someone else of stealing what they stole
I will never understand.
Must be a lack of morals I suppose.
 
"Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
news:OUARBay$HHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> Probably not on Debian actually but see this is what you are missing.
> Beryl, Compiz and a couple of others are NOT finished products and the
> community does NOT release them pretending that they are. I said, which
> you and Dennis apparently cannot interpret, "Getting easier", I did not
> say perfect...

I think its you that doesn't understand.. Linux is unfinished and it
probably will remain that way as there will always be a new windows manager
in the wings.. shame they don't fix the simple things first. However they
won't as the existing Linux users and developers can't grasp how hard it is
for a newbie to install and use Linux. How do they expect Linux to actually
take over the desktop when they can't understand something so simple? Its
not rocket science, its understanding your target users. If you look at the
possible users M$ targets 100% while Linux might target 1-2%. Now if you
look at the one laptop per child initiative they are targeting their users
and are using "linux" howevr they have done a proper job and hidden all the
cr@p that you get with most Linux distros.

>> Fortunately the "advocates" here are not in charge of prioritising bug
>> fixes. If so, we would all be tweaking the MBR and xorg.conf from now
>> until eternity.
>
> I have had far worse challenges trying to get things to work under Vista.
>

Are they more difficult or do you just not know how?
People always find things the know easy, just ask a rocket scientist if its
difficult (PS no it isn't).
It would be a waste of time asking you what needs to change in Linux to make
it more acceptable to new users, unfortunately it is people like you that
will be asked and who will guide Linux in the wrong direction.
Its damn hard knowing how simple to make a system.. I know I have worked on
systems that are expected^W required to work for *all* people, not just
people who have been using the product for six months.
 
dennis@home wrote:
>
> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
> news:uqO3FVy$HHA.5868@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Pennywise@DerryMaine.Gov wrote:
>>> "dennis@home" <dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> running on fixed hardware and none of this compatibility afford a
>>>> computer. Its worth remembering that incompatible hardware is the
>>>> price we pay for having so much choice and it could have been so
>>>> different if M$ had sold exclusive rights to windows/dos to IBM, no
>>>> affordable clones, no internet as we know it, no linux..
>>>
>>> And then AmigA would of ruled the world as it was ment to.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> True enough, always makes me smile when they accuse MS of stealing
>> from Apple, it was actually Workbench and Intuition they stole :)
>
> Apple stole it from Xerox even down to the one button mouse.
> How a thief has the nerve to accuse someone else of stealing what they
> stole I will never understand.
> Must be a lack of morals I suppose.

Interesting. I wonder why back in 84, if you wanted to buy a Mac in
Venezuela, you had to buy it from a company called Team Apple-Xerox?

--
Alias
To email me, remove shoes
 
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:02:09 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

>
> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
> news:OUARBay$HHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
>> Probably not on Debian actually but see this is what you are missing.
>> Beryl, Compiz and a couple of others are NOT finished products and the
>> community does NOT release them pretending that they are. I said, which
>> you and Dennis apparently cannot interpret, "Getting easier", I did not
>> say perfect...
>
> I think its you that doesn't understand.. Linux is unfinished and it
> probably will remain that way as there will always be a new windows manager
> in the wings.. shame they don't fix the simple things first. However they
> won't as the existing Linux users and developers can't grasp how hard it is
> for a newbie to install and use Linux. How do they expect Linux to actually

The thing is, it's *not* hard, even for a newbiew, to install and use
Linux. I don't know why this keeps being repeated, when it's so manifestly
not true.

If someone is putting Linux on a machine where they aren't worried about
losing the existing OS, nothing could be simpler. In most cases, put the
CD or DVD into the machine and reboot. HOw is that hard?

If there's aneed to partition first, then yes, that's alittle more
daunting, but that goes for Windows too.

> take over the desktop when they can't understand something so simple?

How is Linux any harder to use than Windows? In general usage, they are
virtually the same - move a mouse and click on menus or icons. Providing
all is set up correctly to start with, little or no recourse to the
command line should be required. Apps may be different, but they don
similar things in largely similar ways, and quite a few of the core FOSS
apps are available to Windows users anyway.

> Its not rocket science, its understanding your target users. If you look
> at the possible users M$ targets 100% while Linux might target 1-2%. Now
> if you look at the one laptop per child initiative they are targeting
> their users and are using "linux" howevr they have done a proper job and
> hidden all the cr@p that you get with most Linux distros.

Not sure what crap you're referring to.

>
>>> Fortunately the "advocates" here are not in charge of prioritising bug
>>> fixes. If so, we would all be tweaking the MBR and xorg.conf from now
>>> until eternity.
>>
>> I have had far worse challenges trying to get things to work under Vista.
>>
>
> Are they more difficult or do you just not know how?

Exactly. Linux is just the same. It's not 'difficult' to use, merely
unfamiliar. If you've been used to Windows, you might need to find your
way around in a different fashion, but it's no harder than Windows.

> People always find things the know easy, just ask a rocket scientist if its
> difficult (PS no it isn't).
> It would be a waste of time asking you what needs to change in Linux to make
> it more acceptable to new users, unfortunately it is people like you that
> will be asked and who will guide Linux in the wrong direction.

So, what do you consider the right direction to be? Bear in mind that most
Linux users and developers don't want to see Linux become another lazy
clone of Windows.

--
Kier
 
* dennis@home:
> "Charlie Tame" <charlie@tames.net> wrote in message
> news:OUARBay$HHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
>> Probably not on Debian actually but see this is what you are missing.
>> Beryl, Compiz and a couple of others are NOT finished products and the
>> community does NOT release them pretending that they are. I said, which
>> you and Dennis apparently cannot interpret, "Getting easier", I did not
>> say perfect...
>
> I think its you that doesn't understand.. Linux is unfinished and it
> probably will remain that way as there will always be a new windows manager
> in the wings.. shame they don't fix the simple things first. However they
> won't as the existing Linux users and developers can't grasp how hard it is
> for a newbie to install and use Linux. How do they expect Linux to actually
> take over the desktop when they can't understand something so simple? Its
> not rocket science, its understanding your target users. If you look at the
> possible users M$ targets 100% while Linux might target 1-2%. Now if you
> look at the one laptop per child initiative they are targeting their users
> and are using "linux" howevr they have done a proper job and hidden all the
> cr@p that you get with most Linux distros.
>
>>> Fortunately the "advocates" here are not in charge of prioritising bug
>>> fixes. If so, we would all be tweaking the MBR and xorg.conf from now
>>> until eternity.
>> I have had far worse challenges trying to get things to work under Vista.
>>
>
> Are they more difficult or do you just not know how?
> People always find things the know easy, just ask a rocket scientist if its
> difficult (PS no it isn't).
> It would be a waste of time asking you what needs to change in Linux to make
> it more acceptable to new users, unfortunately it is people like you that
> will be asked and who will guide Linux in the wrong direction.
> Its damn hard knowing how simple to make a system.. I know I have worked on
> systems that are expected^W required to work for *all* people, not just
> people who have been using the product for six months.

You must be joking.
If Kevin (kevpan815@hotmail.com) can install Linux,
anyone can install Linux.
Especially, Ubuntu or PCLinuxOS.

I've installed a few versions of each, it really is quite simple.
Really. Probably, even for you, Dennis.

By the way, most folks in the Windows world *never* actually
install the operating system, they buy computers with Windows
already installed. This group would be 1000 times busier if
many PC users had to install Windows themselves, as do most Linux users.



-Michael
 
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:02:09 +0100, "dennis@home"
<dennis@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:


>I think its you that doesn't understand.. Linux is unfinished and it
>probably will remain that way as there will always be a new windows manager
>in the wings.. shame they don't fix the simple things first.

Let me guess, by that stupid statement you're implying Windows is
finished? You want to talk windows manager, explain to me why in over
twenty years of trying the Boys of Redmond still haven't come up with
a shell good enough that many of their MVPs recommend and use
something else.

>However they
>won't as the existing Linux users and developers can't grasp how hard it is
>for a newbie to install and use Linux. How do they expect Linux to actually
>take over the desktop when they can't understand something so simple? Its
>not rocket science, its understanding your target users.

Oh, understanding target users. Yea, your right, Microsoft is so good
at that. Like the morons that designed a START button to turn off your
computer or give you an option that ends up deleting your recycle bin
when some newbies think you're just emptying the contents?

You're right Dennis, shame those developing Linux don't have designers
like Microsoft that make those kind of awe inspiring design decisions.
 

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