Re: cola nut sees a "mass migration" to Linux

  • Thread starter Thread starter Moshe Goldfarb
  • Start date Start date
* AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?


Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.

> In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
> (it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
> you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
>
> SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
> method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
> code.
>
> X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
> method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
> before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
>
> They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
> most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
> linux - because they're not free.


That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed. And, if you
start to depend on it, then you are not so flexible when you go to a
different work environment. And that's ignoring the money.

I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
I could have saved myself a lot of money.

Tools like cscope, etags, flawfinder, and many others will help you,
and give you much of the same functionality as the tools above,
though you have to activate them manually. I suspect Emacs has a lot of
tools that do some of the stuff you mention above. In vim, you can
issue a make while you are editing, anytime you're curious, and have vim
step through each error.

My method of building code is to comment early, and build early, and
then comment and build continuously. There's no substitute for knowing
what you are doing, being alert, and write the destruct code at the same
time as the construction code.

And keeping your design small and API concise.

Here's an object lesson from a Windows master:

http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html

But I'm an old-school guy. What do I know? I started out using EDLIN
and DEBUG on MASM source-code files that were up to 1 Mb in size.
On PCs that were lucky to have the full 640K of RAM. I would have
dropped dead from envy if I had known about the tools that were available
to the UNIX programmer back in 1985. (I did have a nice vi for the PC,
but the company wouldn't allow me to use it.)

--
Microsoft is not about greed. It's about innovation and fairness.
-- Bill Gates
 
* AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:

> On Mar 25, 8:17 pm, Linonut <lino...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>> Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
>> being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
>> stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.

>
> Heh now you're making a FUD. The whole malware and virus issues are
> only caused by the stupidity of common PC users. Anyone who have at
> least some sense of computer security wouldn't have that kind of
> problems at all, that includes many of you linux users.
>
> I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
> software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
> except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
> most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.


Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
maintenance as Linux, and probably more.

Note that almost anyone reading these newsgroups is a /far more
advanced/ Windows user than the majority of consumers who just take what
the manufacturer installs on the machine.

--
Like almost everyone who uses e-mail, I receive a ton of spam every day.
Much of it offers to help me get out of debt or get rich quick. It would be
funny if it weren't so exciting.
-- Bill Gates
 
Linonut wrote:
> * AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:
> > I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
> > software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
> > except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
> > most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.

>
> Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
> sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
> training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
> maintenance as Linux, and probably more.


True, but at least windows is not as insecure and buggy as many linux
advocates claimed. And with windows you have much more choices of
softwares, because it's the major OS, and it's usually preinstalled on
new PCs, and many developers are making free or non-free applications
for it.

It's not that windows is technically better than linux, or vice versa
- but that people don't really get enough benefit to compensate for
all the troubles if they switch the OS, rather than an office suite or
a web browser.
 
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Moshe Goldfarb
<brick.n.straw@gmail.com>
wrote
on Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:33:41 -0400
<fis7fq13qq6z.ggdal3i58fo6$.dlg@40tude.net>:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT), AqD wrote:
>
>
>> you assume everyone are using ubuntu....

>
> Aren't they?


Well, no. Everyone's using Microsoft Windows Vista.
That's why Microsoft decided to extend the XP sunset provision
until sometime this summer....

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #992398129:
void f(unsigned u) { if(u < 0) ... }

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:35:45 -0400, Linonut wrote:


> I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
> I could have saved myself a lot of money.


Twice...
You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you Linonut?


--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
 
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:39:46 -0700 (PDT), AqD <aquila.deus@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mar 25, 8:17 pm, Linonut <lino...@bollsouth.nut> wrote:
>> Well, most people seem quite willing to put up with malware and with
>> being nickel-and-dimed to death to fight malware and to be able to do
>> stuff (office, pix, audio/video) with their Windows computers.

>
>Heh now you're making a FUD. The whole malware and virus issues are
>only caused by the stupidity of common PC users. Anyone who have at
>least some sense of computer security wouldn't have that kind of
>problems at all, that includes many of you linux users.
>
>I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
>software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
>except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
>most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.


WTH is a FUD?


$$$$$$$$$$$
Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!
 
"Linonut" <linonut@bollsouth.nut> wrote in message
news:VDiGj.22893$Er2.5603@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>* AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> Have you ever tried Code-Forge, or SlickEdit, or X-develop?

>
> Nah, just Visual Studio and CodeWright.
>
>> In code-forge, you can have code analysis and true c++ auto-completion
>> (it even takes macros into account), and the project orgenizer can let
>> you edit complex dependencies in make, though not automake'ed I think
>>
>> SlickEdit gives you refactorying for C++, so you can rename or move a
>> method in the whole project, without worrying about other related
>> code.
>>
>> X-develop has background checking - not only syntax, but also missing
>> method/variable, duplicated code parts, etc - when you're typing. So
>> before you ever make/compile you could already fix most errors.
>>
>> They're designed for linux/unix or cross-platoform, but less known to
>> most developers, and probably never recommended by anyone who use
>> linux - because they're not free.

>
> That stuff's cool, but you pay a price for it in speed.


What speed? Are you saying that you can type faster than a GUI can accept
input?

> And, if you
> start to depend on it, then you are not so flexible when you go to a
> different work environment.


Valid point. Something like 'makefiles' and 'emacs/vi' are pretty much the
lowest common denominator.

> And that's ignoring the money.

My employer pays for the development tools I use. Doesn't yours?


> I paid over $200, twice, for CodeWright. If I had known about vim,
> I could have saved myself a lot of money.

Isn't that a GUI based app? Does it run on all platforms? (Just asking, I
don't use it.)

> Tools like cscope, etags, flawfinder, and many others will help you,
> and give you much of the same functionality as the tools above,
> though you have to activate them manually. I suspect Emacs has a lot of
> tools that do some of the stuff you mention above. In vim, you can
> issue a make while you are editing, anytime you're curious, and have vim
> step through each error.
>
> My method of building code is to comment early, and build early, and
> then comment and build continuously. There's no substitute for knowing
> what you are doing, being alert, and write the destruct code at the same
> time as the construction code.


That programming style is orthoganal to whether you do it in a GUI or CLI
based development environment.

> And keeping your design small and API concise.

Applies to GUI, CLI and pretty much any language. It's the KISS principal.

> Here's an object lesson from a Windows master:
>
> http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html


A long but decent read. As Chuck says - "Of course, I could always just turn
it off." which is what people who don't like these features should do. But
these same features shouldn't be denied to people who do like them.


> But I'm an old-school guy. What do I know? I started out using EDLIN
> and DEBUG on MASM source-code files that were up to 1 Mb in size.
> On PCs that were lucky to have the full 640K of RAM. I would have
> dropped dead from envy if I had known about the tools that were available
> to the UNIX programmer back in 1985. (I did have a nice vi for the PC,
> but the company wouldn't allow me to use it.)


Why would anyone ever use EDLIN? There were clearly much, much better
editors available at that time.

> --
> Microsoft is not about greed. It's about innovation and fairness.
> -- Bill Gates





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Frank wrote:
> Alias wrote:
>
>> Frank wrote:
>>
>>> Alias wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> hehehe...still jealous that I have 17 installs of Vista Ultimate
>>>>> properly running
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How can one be jealous of something that isn't true?
>>>>
>>>> Alias
>>>
>>>
>>> Lying will not hide your jealousy or your being broke...LOL!
>>> Frank

>>
>>
>> The *last* think I am is jealous of a low life like you and, no, I am
>> not broke but thanks for playing.
>>
>> Alias

>
> hehehe...."think"...hahaha...you're so jealous and so broke even if you
> had a pot to pee in you don't have a window to throw it out of...LOL!
> Frank


I just told you that the last thing I would be is jealous of a low life
like you and I'm not broke. What about this sentence is there that you
don't understand?

Alias
 
* AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Linonut wrote:
>> * AqD peremptorily fired off this memo:
>> > I have been using windows for around 1 year: I use no anti-virus
>> > software, no firewall (my router is the firewall). I don't use IE
>> > except to test webpages, and I don't open weird mail attachments like
>> > most of the idiots would do. No virus or anything so far.

>>
>> Unfortunately, the vast majority of PC users depend on others to make
>> sure their systems are maintained. Almost nobody gets any formal
>> training in Windows maintenance, and Windows needs at least as much
>> maintenance as Linux, and probably more.

>
> True, but at least windows is not as insecure and buggy as many linux
> advocates claimed.


True. It is /more/ insecure than we claim:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/11/feds_put_more_botmasters_phish.html

http://www.govtech.com/gt/185085?topic=117671

And Vista?

http://gizmodo.com/342920/holy-crap-did-bill-gates-just-say-windows-sucks

Remember to "suit up" before plugging in:

http://www.ps3blog.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/anti-virus.jpg

> And with windows you have much more choices of
> softwares, because it's the major OS, and it's usually preinstalled on
> new PCs, and many developers are making free or non-free applications
> for it.


Very true. At least for XP. Vista's a bit more iffy, from what I hear.

> It's not that windows is technically better than linux, or vice versa
> - but that people don't really get enough benefit to compensate for
> all the troubles if they switch the OS, rather than an office suite or
> a web browser.


Partly true. Also partly true is that people simply don't /know/ the
benefits (especially in security) they'll get from running Linux. And,
of course, many surely don't care about the "freedom" benefits. They're
users.

Myself? Once I tried Linux, I simply loved it, and have gradually grown
to dislike Windows by comparison. Your mileage will vary.

Anyway, thanks for the honest dialogue.

--
If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.
-- Bill Gates
 
IBM has been identified as using FUD in the early computer days to badmouth
Amdahl and other computer competitors, stating that connecting any of their
devices to "our" systems would result in failure an loss of your investment.
They also proclaimed that if you supported IBM you would always have a job.

--
Regards, BobF.
"Tim Slattery" <Slattery_T@bls.gov> wrote in message
news:27blu3l056jr5m93nhdduti30rn6a9719u@4ax.com...
> JD <ham@123.net> wrote:
>
>>WTH is a FUD?

>
> FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
>
>>Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!

>
> ROTFL!!
>
> --
> Tim Slattery
> MS MVP(Shell/User)
> Slattery_T@bls.gov
> http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
 
Wankers!

JJ


"Frank" wrote:

> Alias wrote:
> > Bob Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> "Alias" <iamalias@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:fs5va6$hlb$4@aioe.org...
> >>
> >>> If you don't think that MS spreads FUD about Linux it's because you
> >>> are brainwashed by MS' FUD.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you don't think that Linux Loonies spread FUD about Windows it's
> >> because you are
> >> brainwashed by Linux Loonie Land FUD.
> >>
> >>

> >
> > The classic school yard "I know you are but what am I?" response. Stop
> > drinking the kool aide, Bob.
> >
> > Alias

>
> You need to get a better argument seeing as how you're the linux troll
> in this ng...LOL!
> Frank
>
 
* Tim Slattery peremptorily fired off this memo:

> --
> Tim Slattery
> MS MVP(Shell/User)


Does the above mean you're a shell expert?

What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?

> Slattery_T@bls.gov
> http://members.cox.net/slatteryt


--
Probably the most dangerous and powerful industrialist of our age.
-- Scott McNealy, of Sun Microsystems
 
Bob F. wrote:
> IBM has been identified as using FUD in the early computer days to
> badmouth Amdahl and other computer competitors, stating that
> connecting any of their devices to "our" systems would result in
> failure an loss of your investment. They also proclaimed that if you
> supported IBM you would always have a job.


_Most_ of the major companys operate today under a Consent Decree for those
kind of practices. IBM is one of many that do.


>
>> JD <ham@123.net> wrote:
>>
>>> WTH is a FUD?

>>
>> FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
>>
>>> Yours truly, Johnny Dollar!

>>
>> ROTFL!!
>>
>> --
>> Tim Slattery
>> MS MVP(Shell/User)
>> Slattery_T@bls.gov
>> http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
 
Linonut wrote:
> * Tim Slattery peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> --
>> Tim Slattery
>> MS MVP(Shell/User)

>
> Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
>
> What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or
> zoidberg?


Clam.
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:42:09 -0800, chrisv wrote:

> Linonut wrote:
>> * Tim Slattery peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Slattery
>>> MS MVP(Shell/User)

>>
>> Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
>>
>> What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or
>> zoidberg?

>
> Clam.


Good choice.......

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
 
Frank wrote:
> Alias wrote:
>> Bob Campbell wrote:
>>
>>> "Alias" <iamalias@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fs5va6$hlb$4@aioe.org...
>>>
>>>> If you don't think that MS spreads FUD about Linux it's because you
>>>> are brainwashed by MS' FUD.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you don't think that Linux Loonies spread FUD about Windows it's
>>> because you are
>>> brainwashed by Linux Loonie Land FUD.
>>>
>>>

>>
>> The classic school yard "I know you are but what am I?" response. Stop
>> drinking the kool aide, Bob.
>>
>> Alias

>
> You need to get a better argument seeing as how you're the linux troll
> in this ng...LOL!
> Frank


You're a troll in *any* news group.

Alias
 
Linonut <linonut@bollsouth.nut> wrote:

>> MS MVP(Shell/User)


>Does the above mean you're a shell expert?


It means that MS changes the MVP categories faster than I can keep up!

>What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?


Kornshell, when I use Unix.

--
Tim Slattery
MS MVP(Shell/User)
Slattery_T@bls.gov
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt
 
On Mar 27, 3:50 am, Jim Richardson <warl...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > WTF? The machines we develop on now do these things in a blink of an
> > eye. And I challenge ANY developer here to say that a few ms wasted "as
> > he types" is somehow an anchor on his productivity compared to the
> > benefits it brings.

>
> An interesting assertion. Hadron claims that "a few ms" delay when
> typing won't affect productivitiy.


Those big java IDEs don't run well on old computers. But if you can
pay for those expensive softwares, can't you pay for a new PC?

BTW it's not a few ms, the whole checking process (or the auto
building/make in eclipse) is quiet CPU intensive although it's done
in background, one can still feel that slowness on an old pc like mine
(sempron 2.4g). But the productivity it brings worths everything - and
those features are what most free IDEs/editors don't have - or cannot
have unless you really have a lot of developers to put into that part .
 
Linonut wrote:

>* Tim Slattery peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> --
>> Tim Slattery
>> MS MVP(Shell/User)

>
>Does the above mean you're a shell expert?
>
>What's your favorite shell? tsh? csh? zsh? ksh? bash? Or zoidberg?


Powers~1
 
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