Dell "Back To School Catalog Aug edition" Where is Linux????????

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
> Your points have already been addressed in my replies to others. I think
> I've explained myself sufficiently. However, the facts that I'm aware of,
> including comments from some Linux fans, is that your "leaps & bounds"
> description is, well, highly exaggerated. I've been hearing the same thing

It works better than Windows.

Plug things in and they "just work". You don't have to worry about
dire warnings regarding plugging a device in before you load the driver.
It's rediculous. Even things like SMB printers work better under Linux
versus Windows where they're very hit or miss.

The question is... if you aren't already running Windows then
why bother. If you've got a copy in a VM somewhere, what if anything
can you do with it? What would you bother running Windows for beyond
games?

> for several years , now, with the facts being that Linux development for
> consumer and SOHO versions is proceeding at something more resembling a
> snail's pace. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, just like I'll be happy to

This is really rich considering the history of Windows.

> be proven wrong when I say that the much vaunted Windows 7 won't be released
> until well past it's target date, that it will take MUCH longer than
> previous versions of Windows to get debugged by the public, and thus Vista
> will end up being the ruling OS until sometime after 2013-2015.
>
> A failure to produce a truly new Windows this time (as was promised all
> through the development of Vista), will perhaps be the only opening for
> Linux to gain any real market share during the next decade.
>


--
....as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
|||
/ | \

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[Gary S. Terhune]

"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful task
>> can
>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>> examples
>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping the
>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>
> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows, though
I've no idea what you mean by "automated" in this context. I'm not "in"
Vista right now, but Ultimate comes with a lot of built-in rippers. Seems to
me that they include a DVD ripper, but don't hold me to that.
>
> Also, being able to "merely do something too" is far too low a bar
> for the platform that's been the industry monopoly juggernaut for over
> 20 years. It shouldn't just be a "me too" situation. It should be a
> dramatic improvement.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, there are to reasons for this
situation: 1. Vista tanked., and 2. Antitrust rulings keep MS from doing a
LOT of things natively that MS would be perfectly happy to include..
>
> Windows shouldn't just be a platform for free software projects.
> That really defies the point of paying for it.

If you think that's what Windows is, then you need to update your own
database. I, personally, have approx. $5000 worth of purchased software
installed on this system, not including Windows or Office, that, while I
don't use them every day, I must have them available for use at a moment's
notice. Things like data recovery software, just to provide one example. I'm
a fan of trying all the apps out there via share/demo/free versions before
finally purchasing what is usually top of the line and costs top dollar.

My clients typically have ~$500 worth of purchased software installed on
their systems, not including the OS. That may all sound like a lot of money,
but freeware is becoming more and more rare and more and more like "Lite"
versions that are severely limited in functionality until you pay for a
license. I, and most of my clients, prefer to pay to get something that
works properly. Particularly since Support at most large comapnies, like
Dell, for example, have what amounts to absolutely useless support. I also
pay for shareware that I use and urge my clients to do likewise. It's only
fair that the programmer of a decent app get compensated for his or her
efforts.

> A mac or a linux user has Vista in a VM. What do they bother using
> it for? Games?

What's with the riddle? Only person I know well who installed VM and Windows
on her new Mac, soon realized that it was redundant and stopped using it.
And Games is one very large segment of the Windows population that I don't
have anything to do with. Even my clients get told, "I don't know. Go find
someone online who does." And then I have to teach them how to do that.
While we're on the topic, I only use Windows Messenger fro Remote Assistant
sessions, and the "Media Center" versions drive me batty. I don't rip music,
don't even listen to it anymore. Same goes for personal photos and video.
They're just not my thing. When I work with images, they are generally very
high-resolution scans or digital photos and the only ones that become JPGs
are for use on our website. I've a serious aversion to lossy compression.
Make mine uncompressed TIFFs, thank you.

Now, give me half a million scanned TIFFs that comprise a decades long
record of a major environmental lawsuit and I'm happy as a clam batch
processing them through ABBYY OCR using my own scripts, then adding them to
a Concordance database (http://tinyurl.com/6j395s), learning the scripting I
needed as I went along. Done similar things with scripting the download of a
couple million USGS Topo maps and their paired satellite images, then using
Publisher (IIRC) to concatenate the close-up images into larger maps in
order to create the maps for my wife's publications. They are known
throughout the region as the most accurate street maps available, because I
didn't even trust the USGS and went out and ground-proofed every detail.
Then there was the scripted fetching via WGET (again, I think that was the
one) to rip off the California government site for another million+ HTM
pages, each one a record of one licensed contractor in the state of
California, and then batch parsed them to first get rid of contractors who
aren't part of our sales region, then put the rest into an Excel book,
suitable for further sorting and creating mailing labels using Word.

And those are just the bigger ones. That first one was done on a P233 with
64 MB of RAM Gotta admit, it was a lot of days of sitting around waiting for
anything I had to deal with (which, once the scripts were perfected, turned
out to be not much. But the fee bought me the machine that I'm using now
(well, it's the same case and a couple of HDs, but I rebuilt it last year
after I somehow fried my original ABIT board.)

If you want to pick on the "typical" Windows user, you'll need to look
elsewhere. There's nothing typical about what I do with my machine. And I'm
a packrat, so I have versions of apps and system files going back to '97
(when I first got started with Windows.) When I'm not involved in some
project, or managing my brother's SBS network, I'm assisting people, mostly
for free or for a purely nominal fee, with their Windows systems. It's what
I LIKE to do most. Learning Windows, the way I learned 95, then 98, then ME
and 2000 on (by tearing them apart and putting them back together again
until I knew most of the system and all of it's settings by heart, how to
successfully install apps, how to properly maintain the systems...

But a few years ago I developed an as yet undiagnosed pattern of seizures
that blew huge holes in my memory. as I believe I already told you. So I'm
not on top of my game, to the point that I feel can't trust myself with
other people's systems, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. So I stuck
with what I knew best, Windows 98. Believe me, that one is getting
interesting at this point in time. You have your dual-booters who are
finding that Win98 won't run on modern hardware, period, then you have the
poor people and their hand-me-downs, with Support not just slowly
disappearing from hardware and software sites but actually being excised
from drivers packages. I multi-boot two computers, this one and an older
test machine, and I have a difficult time getting up and doing something
else. But I'm going to try now.

 

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful task
>>> can
>>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>>> examples
>>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping the
>>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>>
>> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
> Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows, though

IOW you have absolutely no clue.

What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?

> I've no idea what you mean by "automated" in this context. I'm not "in"

Never used an mp3 ripper in your life? Never heard one described to you?

What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?

> Vista right now, but Ultimate comes with a lot of built-in rippers. Seems to
> me that they include a DVD ripper, but don't hold me to that.
>>
>> Also, being able to "merely do something too" is far too low a bar
>> for the platform that's been the industry monopoly juggernaut for over
>> 20 years. It shouldn't just be a "me too" situation. It should be a
>> dramatic improvement.
>
> If you're saying what I think you're saying, there are to reasons for this
> situation: 1. Vista tanked., and 2. Antitrust rulings keep MS from doing a
> LOT of things natively that MS would be perfectly happy to include..
>>
>> Windows shouldn't just be a platform for free software projects.
>> That really defies the point of paying for it.
>
> If you think that's what Windows is, then you need to update your own
> database. I, personally, have approx. $5000 worth of purchased software

Like what exactly?

People can easily waste money. That doesn't mean there's any real point to it.

> installed on this system, not including Windows or Office, that, while I
> don't use them every day, I must have them available for use at a moment's
> notice. Things like data recovery software, just to provide one example. I'm

Sounds completely uninteresting in a Unix context.

> a fan of trying all the apps out there via share/demo/free versions before
> finally purchasing what is usually top of the line and costs top dollar.
>
> My clients typically have ~$500 worth of purchased software installed on
[deletia]
>> A mac or a linux user has Vista in a VM. What do they bother using
>> it for? Games?
>
> What's with the riddle? Only person I know well who installed VM and Windows

It's no riddle.

What's the value of Windows? Why bother with it?

What are these people spending thousands of dollars on?

> on her new Mac, soon realized that it was redundant and stopped using it.
> And Games is one very large segment of the Windows population that I don't
> have anything to do with. Even my clients get told, "I don't know. Go find
> someone online who does." And then I have to teach them how to do that.
> While we're on the topic, I only use Windows Messenger fro Remote Assistant
> sessions, and the "Media Center" versions drive me batty. I don't rip music,
> don't even listen to it anymore. Same goes for personal photos and video.
> They're just not my thing. When I work with images, they are generally very
> high-resolution scans or digital photos and the only ones that become JPGs
> are for use on our website. I've a serious aversion to lossy compression.
> Make mine uncompressed TIFFs, thank you.
>
> Now, give me half a million scanned TIFFs that comprise a decades long
> record of a major environmental lawsuit and I'm happy as a clam batch
> processing them through ABBYY OCR using my own scripts, then adding them to
> a Concordance database (http://tinyurl.com/6j395s), learning the scripting I
> needed as I went along. Done similar things with scripting the download of a
> couple million USGS Topo maps and their paired satellite images, then using
> Publisher (IIRC) to concatenate the close-up images into larger maps in
> order to create the maps for my wife's publications. They are known
> throughout the region as the most accurate street maps available, because I
> didn't even trust the USGS and went out and ground-proofed every detail.
> Then there was the scripted fetching via WGET (again, I think that was the
> one) to rip off the California government site for another million+ HTM
> pages, each one a record of one licensed contractor in the state of
> California, and then batch parsed them to first get rid of contractors who
> aren't part of our sales region, then put the rest into an Excel book,
> suitable for further sorting and creating mailing labels using Word.
>
> And those are just the bigger ones. That first one was done on a P233 with
> 64 MB of RAM Gotta admit, it was a lot of days of sitting around waiting for
> anything I had to deal with (which, once the scripts were perfected, turned
> out to be not much. But the fee bought me the machine that I'm using now
> (well, it's the same case and a couple of HDs, but I rebuilt it last year
> after I somehow fried my original ABIT board.)
>
> If you want to pick on the "typical" Windows user, you'll need to look
> elsewhere. There's nothing typical about what I do with my machine. And I'm
> a packrat, so I have versions of apps and system files going back to '97
> (when I first got started with Windows.) When I'm not involved in some
> project, or managing my brother's SBS network, I'm assisting people, mostly
> for free or for a purely nominal fee, with their Windows systems. It's what
> I LIKE to do most. Learning Windows, the way I learned 95, then 98, then ME
> and 2000 on (by tearing them apart and putting them back together again
> until I knew most of the system and all of it's settings by heart, how to
> successfully install apps, how to properly maintain the systems...
>
> But a few years ago I developed an as yet undiagnosed pattern of seizures
> that blew huge holes in my memory. as I believe I already told you. So I'm
> not on top of my game, to the point that I feel can't trust myself with
> other people's systems, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. So I stuck
> with what I knew best, Windows 98. Believe me, that one is getting
> interesting at this point in time. You have your dual-booters who are
> finding that Win98 won't run on modern hardware, period, then you have the
> poor people and their hand-me-downs, with Support not just slowly
> disappearing from hardware and software sites but actually being excised
> from drivers packages. I multi-boot two computers, this one and an older
> test machine, and I have a difficult time getting up and doing something
> else. But I'm going to try now.
>
>


--


The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.


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[Gary S. Terhune]

Oh go f*&k yourself, Moshe. I once was blind, but now I see. You're the
worst kind of troll. Stop making this an anti-Linux platform and beard the
lion in his own den. If you're going to be a troll and flame Linux users,
quit hiding behind the skirts of these Windows groups and go do it on your
own, in the Linux groups without the cross-posting. Or do you have the balls
for that? No, probably not.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"Moshe Goldfarb." <brick_n_straw@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1imkgpmyy9hc$.w8n6l9uwbqmo.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:09:33 -0700, Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>
>> Your points have already been addressed in my replies to others. I think
>> I've explained myself sufficiently. However, the facts that I'm aware of,
>> including comments from some Linux fans, is that your "leaps & bounds"
>> description is, well, highly exaggerated. I've been hearing the same
>> thing
>> for several years , now, with the facts being that Linux development for
>> consumer and SOHO versions is proceeding at something more resembling a
>> snail's pace.
>
> I've been hearing the same thing for 15+ years.
> In the Linux community, every year is *the year of desktop Linux*.
> It hasn't happened yet.
>
> As for development, Linux is getting better in "leaps & bounds" however
> it's still being ignored by Joe consumer and until it can offer something
> better than Windows for Joe, that will make it worth switching. Linux will
> remain a niche OS.
>
>
>> I'll be happy to be proven wrong, just like I'll be happy to
>> be proven wrong when I say that the much vaunted Windows 7 won't be
>> released
>> until well past it's target date, that it will take MUCH longer than
>> previous versions of Windows to get debugged by the public, and thus
>> Vista
>> will end up being the ruling OS until sometime after 2013-2015.
>
> If this is indeed the case, Linux has a golden opportunity that it really
> should take advantage of.
>
>
>> A failure to produce a truly new Windows this time (as was promised all
>> through the development of Vista), will perhaps be the only opening for
>> Linux to gain any real market share during the next decade.
>
> Linux is right on the edge at the moment IMHO and it could go either way.
> Vista IMHO is total crap and if Linux can't take on Vista, Linux is dead
> as
> far as a desktop system.
>
>
> --
> Moshe Goldfarb
> Collector of soaps from around the globe.
> Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
> http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Say the lonely few...

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrng9mrg3.cfa.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> Your points have already been addressed in my replies to others. I think
>> I've explained myself sufficiently. However, the facts that I'm aware of,
>> including comments from some Linux fans, is that your "leaps & bounds"
>> description is, well, highly exaggerated. I've been hearing the same
>> thing
>
> It works better than Windows.
>
> Plug things in and they "just work". You don't have to worry about
> dire warnings regarding plugging a device in before you load the driver.
> It's rediculous. Even things like SMB printers work better under Linux
> versus Windows where they're very hit or miss.
>
> The question is... if you aren't already running Windows then
> why bother. If you've got a copy in a VM somewhere, what if anything
> can you do with it? What would you bother running Windows for beyond
> games?
>
>> for several years , now, with the facts being that Linux development for
>> consumer and SOHO versions is proceeding at something more resembling a
>> snail's pace. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, just like I'll be happy
>> to
>
> This is really rich considering the history of Windows.
>
>> be proven wrong when I say that the much vaunted Windows 7 won't be
>> released
>> until well past it's target date, that it will take MUCH longer than
>> previous versions of Windows to get debugged by the public, and thus
>> Vista
>> will end up being the ruling OS until sometime after 2013-2015.
>>
>> A failure to produce a truly new Windows this time (as was promised all
>> through the development of Vista), will perhaps be the only opening for
>> Linux to gain any real market share during the next decade.
>>
>
>
> --
> ...as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
> |||
> / | \
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

OK, well if you insist on being an a** hole after my very considered and
honest answers, you obviously ARE a fu&*ing Linux Troll. Relieves me of any
desire to continue replying to you. Kindly GFY.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrng9mta3.lrc.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful
>>>> task
>>>> can
>>>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>>>> examples
>>>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping
>>>> the
>>>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>>>
>>> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
>> Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows,
>> though
>
> IOW you have absolutely no clue.
>
> What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?
>
>> I've no idea what you mean by "automated" in this context. I'm not "in"
>
> Never used an mp3 ripper in your life? Never heard one described to you?
>
> What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?
>
>> Vista right now, but Ultimate comes with a lot of built-in rippers. Seems
>> to
>> me that they include a DVD ripper, but don't hold me to that.
>>>
>>> Also, being able to "merely do something too" is far too low a bar
>>> for the platform that's been the industry monopoly juggernaut for over
>>> 20 years. It shouldn't just be a "me too" situation. It should be a
>>> dramatic improvement.
>>
>> If you're saying what I think you're saying, there are to reasons for
>> this
>> situation: 1. Vista tanked., and 2. Antitrust rulings keep MS from doing
>> a
>> LOT of things natively that MS would be perfectly happy to include..
>>>
>>> Windows shouldn't just be a platform for free software projects.
>>> That really defies the point of paying for it.
>>
>> If you think that's what Windows is, then you need to update your own
>> database. I, personally, have approx. $5000 worth of purchased software
>
> Like what exactly?
>
> People can easily waste money. That doesn't mean there's any real point to
> it.
>
>> installed on this system, not including Windows or Office, that, while I
>> don't use them every day, I must have them available for use at a
>> moment's
>> notice. Things like data recovery software, just to provide one example.
>> I'm
>
> Sounds completely uninteresting in a Unix context.
>
>> a fan of trying all the apps out there via share/demo/free versions
>> before
>> finally purchasing what is usually top of the line and costs top dollar.
>>
>> My clients typically have ~$500 worth of purchased software installed on
> [deletia]
>>> A mac or a linux user has Vista in a VM. What do they bother using
>>> it for? Games?
>>
>> What's with the riddle? Only person I know well who installed VM and
>> Windows
>
> It's no riddle.
>
> What's the value of Windows? Why bother with it?
>
> What are these people spending thousands of dollars on?
>
>> on her new Mac, soon realized that it was redundant and stopped using it.
>> And Games is one very large segment of the Windows population that I
>> don't
>> have anything to do with. Even my clients get told, "I don't know. Go
>> find
>> someone online who does." And then I have to teach them how to do that.
>> While we're on the topic, I only use Windows Messenger fro Remote
>> Assistant
>> sessions, and the "Media Center" versions drive me batty. I don't rip
>> music,
>> don't even listen to it anymore. Same goes for personal photos and video.
>> They're just not my thing. When I work with images, they are generally
>> very
>> high-resolution scans or digital photos and the only ones that become
>> JPGs
>> are for use on our website. I've a serious aversion to lossy compression.
>> Make mine uncompressed TIFFs, thank you.
>>
>> Now, give me half a million scanned TIFFs that comprise a decades long
>> record of a major environmental lawsuit and I'm happy as a clam batch
>> processing them through ABBYY OCR using my own scripts, then adding them
>> to
>> a Concordance database (http://tinyurl.com/6j395s), learning the
>> scripting I
>> needed as I went along. Done similar things with scripting the download
>> of a
>> couple million USGS Topo maps and their paired satellite images, then
>> using
>> Publisher (IIRC) to concatenate the close-up images into larger maps in
>> order to create the maps for my wife's publications. They are known
>> throughout the region as the most accurate street maps available, because
>> I
>> didn't even trust the USGS and went out and ground-proofed every detail.
>> Then there was the scripted fetching via WGET (again, I think that was
>> the
>> one) to rip off the California government site for another million+ HTM
>> pages, each one a record of one licensed contractor in the state of
>> California, and then batch parsed them to first get rid of contractors
>> who
>> aren't part of our sales region, then put the rest into an Excel book,
>> suitable for further sorting and creating mailing labels using Word.
>>
>> And those are just the bigger ones. That first one was done on a P233
>> with
>> 64 MB of RAM Gotta admit, it was a lot of days of sitting around waiting
>> for
>> anything I had to deal with (which, once the scripts were perfected,
>> turned
>> out to be not much. But the fee bought me the machine that I'm using now
>> (well, it's the same case and a couple of HDs, but I rebuilt it last year
>> after I somehow fried my original ABIT board.)
>>
>> If you want to pick on the "typical" Windows user, you'll need to look
>> elsewhere. There's nothing typical about what I do with my machine. And
>> I'm
>> a packrat, so I have versions of apps and system files going back to '97
>> (when I first got started with Windows.) When I'm not involved in some
>> project, or managing my brother's SBS network, I'm assisting people,
>> mostly
>> for free or for a purely nominal fee, with their Windows systems. It's
>> what
>> I LIKE to do most. Learning Windows, the way I learned 95, then 98, then
>> ME
>> and 2000 on (by tearing them apart and putting them back together again
>> until I knew most of the system and all of it's settings by heart, how to
>> successfully install apps, how to properly maintain the systems...
>>
>> But a few years ago I developed an as yet undiagnosed pattern of seizures
>> that blew huge holes in my memory. as I believe I already told you. So
>> I'm
>> not on top of my game, to the point that I feel can't trust myself with
>> other people's systems, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. So I
>> stuck
>> with what I knew best, Windows 98. Believe me, that one is getting
>> interesting at this point in time. You have your dual-booters who are
>> finding that Win98 won't run on modern hardware, period, then you have
>> the
>> poor people and their hand-me-downs, with Support not just slowly
>> disappearing from hardware and software sites but actually being excised
>> from drivers packages. I multi-boot two computers, this one and an older
>> test machine, and I have a difficult time getting up and doing something
>> else. But I'm going to try now.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
> The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
> Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

 

[Ed Edelenbos]

"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrng9mta3.lrc.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful
>>>> task
>>>> can
>>>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>>>> examples
>>>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping
>>>> the
>>>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>>>
>>> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
>> Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows,
>> though
>
> IOW you have absolutely no clue.
>
> What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?
>

I don't use mine to rip illegal copies of DVD's. Is that the value of
Linux, illegal activities?

>
> What's the value of Windows? Why bother with it?
>

It works. It doesn't take hours of reading and googling and getting snot
nosed answers on a group like this (a.o.l.u) about how stupid one is for not
knowing tomes of antiquated line commands just to get a video card or
printer to work. (Or to know that Linux is not compatible with that
hardware.)

> What are these people spending thousands of dollars on?
>

Who is spending thousands of dollars on it?

I bought a $300 PC and Windows XP was on it. I think the same PC was
available for $450 without XP (or any OS).

IF you know someone who spent thousands of dollars, I might agree... they
are stupid. I get the impression you are talking out of the wrong end,
though.

I also bought a tiny laptop with Linux on it (ASUS eeePC). As long as I
don't try to install anything extra (like useful software), it works fine...
quicker than it would with XP. But the minute you try to customize it, or
get software that does what *I* want, or print, or any nuber of UTILE
things, the system software hiccups and it all goes to hell. The other
(similarly priced but not as lightweight) laptop that had xp on it was easy
to configure (for my 13 year old) with the software she wanted (and
*needed*) for school.

I'm all for alternatives. But they have to work. Different for differents'
sake isn't an answer.

Ed

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

FYI, I'm the one who has spent thousands on software. It's easy when your
livelihood requires that you keep up on the latest technologies, when part
of that livelihood is publishing several mags per year, when you need tools
like Data Recovery software (RTT), or truly high quality OCR (ABBYY 6 Full
version), etc. When hardware used to cost a lot more and provided a lot less
(1 GB RAM sticks at a few hundred per), adding hard drives as you run out of
room to store absolutely everything (I toss nothing) at likewise ridiculous
prices compared to today.... I don't know how many shareware progs I've paid
for over the years, but those alone probably add up to a couple of thousand
or so... One of these days I'll decide to organize my receipt emails, etc.,
and all the apps... Take apart, catalog and store lots of old system files
of various versions in all the straight-copy backups I did on various family
members' machines before flattening them or moving the data to a new
machine, or just all the Updates I methodically collected...

Think about it. It doesn't take long to get into the many thousands of
dollars. All tax deductible, of course. This machine IS my business. And
used to be most of my wife's business, too. Not to mention most of the rest
of our lives. Heck, we met in Yahoo! Chat room and courted for months via
ICQ before actually meeting. We have at least two machines running at any
one time, each, and there's no purpose in turning the machines off, the
savings would be negligible. That's how much time we spend in the saddle.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"Ed Edelenbos" <eded@spookeasy.net> wrote in message
news:6g1fdbFdr1aaU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrng9mta3.lrc.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>>> news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>>>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>>>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful
>>>>> task
>>>>> can
>>>>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>>>>> examples
>>>>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping
>>>>> the
>>>>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>>>>
>>>> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
>>> Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows,
>>> though
>>
>> IOW you have absolutely no clue.
>>
>> What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?
>>
>
> I don't use mine to rip illegal copies of DVD's. Is that the value of
> Linux, illegal activities?
>
>>
>> What's the value of Windows? Why bother with it?
>>
>
> It works. It doesn't take hours of reading and googling and getting snot
> nosed answers on a group like this (a.o.l.u) about how stupid one is for
> not knowing tomes of antiquated line commands just to get a video card or
> printer to work. (Or to know that Linux is not compatible with that
> hardware.)
>
>> What are these people spending thousands of dollars on?
>>
>
> Who is spending thousands of dollars on it?
>
> I bought a $300 PC and Windows XP was on it. I think the same PC was
> available for $450 without XP (or any OS).
>
> IF you know someone who spent thousands of dollars, I might agree... they
> are stupid. I get the impression you are talking out of the wrong end,
> though.
>
> I also bought a tiny laptop with Linux on it (ASUS eeePC). As long as I
> don't try to install anything extra (like useful software), it works
> fine... quicker than it would with XP. But the minute you try to
> customize it, or get software that does what *I* want, or print, or any
> nuber of UTILE things, the system software hiccups and it all goes to
> hell. The other (similarly priced but not as lightweight) laptop that had
> xp on it was easy to configure (for my 13 year old) with the software she
> wanted (and *needed*) for school.
>
> I'm all for alternatives. But they have to work. Different for
> differents' sake isn't an answer.
>
> Ed
>
>

 

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-07, Ed Edelenbos <eded@spookeasy.net> wrote:
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrng9mta3.lrc.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>> "JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>>> news:slrng9mirm.s32.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
>>>> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>>>>> I can give plenty of examples to support Ed's side. What meaningful
>>>>> task
>>>>> can
>>>>> you do with a Linux PC that you can't do with Windows? One or two
>>>>> examples
>>>>> would be sufficient, and by "meaningful" I mean not including keeping
>>>>> the
>>>>> user occupied with programming the machine itself.
>>>>
>>>> Automated DVD ripper in the style of audio mp3 rippers.
>>> Google suggests that there are plenty of those out there for Windows,
>>> though
>>
>> IOW you have absolutely no clue.
>>
>> What do you use your PC for, a paperweight?
>>
>
> I don't use mine to rip illegal copies of DVD's. Is that the value of
> Linux, illegal activities?

Nothing's illegal about my DVD jukebox. It's no different from the
commercial variant which has already stood up to legal challenges
(kaleidoscope ).
>
>>
>> What's the value of Windows? Why bother with it?
>>
>
> It works. It doesn't take hours of reading and googling and getting snot

No it doesn't.

> nosed answers on a group like this (a.o.l.u) about how stupid one is for not
> knowing tomes of antiquated line commands just to get a video card or
> printer to work. (Or to know that Linux is not compatible with that
> hardware.)

Funny. None of that has happened to me lately.

Printers are MUCH better behaved under Linux than Windows. USB in
general is better behaved and more predictable.

>
>> What are these people spending thousands of dollars on?
>>
>
> Who is spending thousands of dollars on it?

Well, that was from the original response (that you clipped).

[deletia]
> I'm all for alternatives. But they have to work. Different for differents'
> sake isn't an answer.

Free OS.
Free msoffice alternative.
Free photoshop alternative.

Stuff "just works" in a manner more similar to the Mac.

--


The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.


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[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
> Say the lonely few...
>

That's not much of a rebuttal.

My latest revelation was a USB stick that upon building for
a particular purpose is now unusable to Windows despite still
having a perfectly reasonable fat32 partition still sitting on
it. It seems that Windows has some very limited expecations
when it comes to those.

Then there's the rather mundane 2.5 drive that XP refuses to
do anything productive with. That will be interesting to sort
out. A similarly configured drive had no problems working on
another separate XP box.


--


The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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[Gary S. Terhune]

What rebuttal? There was nothing to rebut.That was a brush off. You really
*are* a Linux troll, and while it's been fun, the party's over. Go home.
Your automatic DVD ripper must filling up those 2.5' external HDs at the
rate of at least a few TB per day. You got more important things to do than
hang out here arguing about such nonsense as this.

Oh, and I recommend you post directly to the appropriate NGs about your
Windows hardware issues. Generally, the things you're trying too hard to do
(like any good Linuxer) aren't that difficult. Start a new thread and give
us some history, and I'm sure we can help you get things straightened out in
a jiffy.

Anyway, that's totally OT, so I leave it at that.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrng9nadm.nl5.jedi@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> Say the lonely few...
>>
>
> That's not much of a rebuttal.
>
> My latest revelation was a USB stick that upon building for
> a particular purpose is now unusable to Windows despite still
> having a perfectly reasonable fat32 partition still sitting on
> it. It seems that Windows has some very limited expecations
> when it comes to those.
>
> Then there's the rather mundane 2.5 drive that XP refuses to
> do anything productive with. That will be interesting to sort
> out. A similarly configured drive had no problems working on
> another separate XP box.
>
>
> --
>
>
> The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
> Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

 

[Peter Köhlmann]

"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote:

> What rebuttal? There was nothing to rebut.That was a brush off. You really
> *are* a Linux troll,

That is rich. He posts in a *linux* group, if you haven't noticed by now

> and while it's been fun, the party's over. Go home.

He is. *You* are not, at least over here
So just get lost with your idiotic windows advocacy. Nobody here believes
shit like "no viruses". Nearly all of the linux users here either still
also run windows and know that you are full of it, or they have run it in
the past.

> Your automatic DVD ripper must filling up those 2.5' external HDs at the
> rate of at least a few TB per day. You got more important things to do
> than hang out here arguing about such nonsense as this.

Oh, oh, *you* pulled the stunt about "tell us what linux can do what windows
can't" and when you get answers you declare them as "nonsense".

Good trick, that. Really

< snip >

BTW, your idiotic OE is set up in a way to quote old posts as *signatures*
while top-posting

That is by far the most cretinous setup anyone could come up with.
But thats OK, as you are a MVP. To get any lower than that you need to be a
MCSE
--
Any idiot can run XP. And usually does.

 

[Merrick Baldelli]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:41:04 +0200, "Dirk T. Verbeek"
<dverbeek@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>> Because people can turn on a MS machine and have it work without confusing
>> scripts and complicated installation of inexpensive hardware.
>
>Then why does it on the same computer take at least 4 hrs to install
>Vista or XP but less than an hour for one of the 'Buntu's.
>And the first one is then still without basic applications...

While I *GREATLY* appreciate that Ubuntu was loaded up on its
partition in about 40 minutes, it took approximately 3 1/2 hours more
to get most of what I would use the partition for running, and there's
still parts of the hardware that still don't work the way that I want
it to. (SAA7130, SB Audigy OEM - that still doesn't have complete
support in ALSA and wonky support in PulseAudio, the USB Webcam that
only works in one program so far, just to name those that are on my
immediate hit list)

While it's true that it took a better part of 24 hours to get
ALL the programs running on the Windows Partition from scratch, I've
got an image of the partition set up through ghost that makes the time
comparable to what I experienced with Hardy.

[some snippage]

>> As much as I agree with the "Down with The Man" and indie work and anarchy,
>> sometimes I (like the majority of people) want something that works without
>> needing to be a zealot about it. And with the amout of time it takes to
>> *do* stuff, needing an equal amount of time to decypher the o/s just doesn't
>> work.
>>
>You must have had a bad experience with Linux, I regularly have them
>doing Windows maintenance.

I had a good experience with Gutsy, and a disappointing
experience with Hardy, but hope does indeed spring eternal.

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity

 

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-08, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
> What rebuttal? There was nothing to rebut.That was a brush off. You really

You mean your first weak response?

"I saw something on a superificial search of Google so it must be
all happiness and roses"

I would get a more useful response by asking one of the neighborhood rabbits.

> *are* a Linux troll, and while it's been fun, the party's over. Go home.
> Your automatic DVD ripper must filling up those 2.5' external HDs at the
> rate of at least a few TB per day. You got more important things to do than
> hang out here arguing about such nonsense as this.
>
> Oh, and I recommend you post directly to the appropriate NGs about your
> Windows hardware issues. Generally, the things you're trying too hard to do

Why would something so simple and presumably fundemental require some
specialty news group? It shouldn't be rocket science.

An "it's defective by design" complaint is perfect for a "general" group.

> (like any good Linuxer) aren't that difficult. Start a new thread and give
> us some history, and I'm sure we can help you get things straightened out in
> a jiffy.

History?

It's a FAT formated HD in generic 2.5 chassis?

You might as well ask me the history of a particular floppy disk.

>
> Anyway, that's totally OT, so I leave it at that.
>

More mac-isms would be useful in Vista beyond the eye candy. This is
an area where Linux is getting it better by choosing to copy the right
people (namely Apple).

--
If you think that an 80G disk can hold HUNDRENDS of |||
hours of DV video then you obviously haven't used iMovie either. / | \

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[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-08, Merrick Baldelli <mbaldelli@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:41:04 +0200, "Dirk T. Verbeek"
><dverbeek@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>> Because people can turn on a MS machine and have it work without confusing
>>> scripts and complicated installation of inexpensive hardware.
>>
>>Then why does it on the same computer take at least 4 hrs to install
>>Vista or XP but less than an hour for one of the 'Buntu's.
>>And the first one is then still without basic applications...
>
> While I *GREATLY* appreciate that Ubuntu was loaded up on its
> partition in about 40 minutes, it took approximately 3 1/2 hours more
> to get most of what I would use the partition for running, and there's
> still parts of the hardware that still don't work the way that I want
> it to. (SAA7130, SB Audigy OEM - that still doesn't have complete
> support in ALSA and wonky support in PulseAudio, the USB Webcam that
> only works in one program so far, just to name those that are on my
> immediate hit list)

That sounds odd.

If it works at all it should work everywhere.

Something as crude as cat /dev/video0 | random_app should be
enough to get it working pretty much anywhere...

[deletia]


--
If you think that an 80G disk can hold HUNDRENDS of |||
hours of DV video then you obviously haven't used iMovie either. / | \

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[Moshe Goldfarb.]

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 16:49:55 -0500, JEDIDIAH wrote:

> On 2008-08-07, Gary S. Terhune <none> wrote:
>> Your points have already been addressed in my replies to others. I think
>> I've explained myself sufficiently. However, the facts that I'm aware of,
>> including comments from some Linux fans, is that your "leaps & bounds"
>> description is, well, highly exaggerated. I've been hearing the same thing
>
> It works better than Windows.
>
> Plug things in and they "just work". You don't have to worry about
> dire warnings regarding plugging a device in before you load the driver.
> It's rediculous. Even things like SMB printers work better under Linux
> versus Windows where they're very hit or miss.

I plugged my GPS in a Linux had no idea what to do with it.
Where is the Linux software so I can update my GPS maps, plan trips etc on
my laptop and download it to the GPS?

Come on already Jeb....
These are things common people do.


--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

 

[Moshe Goldfarb.]

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 16:33:22 -0700, Gary S. Terhune wrote:

> Say the lonely few...

Just so you know, Jebbediah is a Linux loon who has been posting to Usenet
since about 1995 when he used to go by the name Jedi...

He likes to play semantics and word games by carefully crafting replies
that offer a lot of words by very little content .

Best to ignore him because he is still living in the command line, green
screen era.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

 

[Ed Edelenbos]

"Merrick Baldelli" <mbaldelli@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d4pn94tap4hr5s48s9vo70ater095kgjup@4ax.com...
>
> While it's true that it took a better part of 24 hours to get
> ALL the programs running on the Windows Partition from scratch, I've

I never understand that. It has never taken me more than about an hour
(maybe an hour and a half including printer drivers) to get XP running
(starting with formatting the drive). The last one I did was a 1.3G celeron
with 512mb memory. It took under an hour and a half including downloading
and installing SP3. But Ubuntu (Gutsy) (assuming the vid. card is
supported) takes under an hour.

Ed

 

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2008-08-08, Ed Edelenbos <eded@spookeasy.net> wrote:
>
> "Merrick Baldelli" <mbaldelli@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:d4pn94tap4hr5s48s9vo70ater095kgjup@4ax.com...
>>
>> While it's true that it took a better part of 24 hours to get
>> ALL the programs running on the Windows Partition from scratch, I've
>
> I never understand that. It has never taken me more than about an hour
> (maybe an hour and a half including printer drivers) to get XP running

>> ALL the programs running on the Windows Partition from scratch, I've

Re-install Windows and you get to re-install EVERYTHING.

Grab those install disks.

Although if you setup the system Unix style you could always
keep those on disk on your "local" partition. Back in the dark
ages I did that for the Windows disks just to avoid the bother
of grabbing them anytime Windows decided to ask for them (like
during a driver install).

> (starting with formatting the drive). The last one I did was a 1.3G celeron
> with 512mb memory. It took under an hour and a half including downloading
> and installing SP3. But Ubuntu (Gutsy) (assuming the vid. card is
> supported) takes under an hour.
>
> Ed
>
>


--
OpenDoc is moot when Apple is your one stop iShop. |||
/ | \

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[Merrick Baldelli]

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:30:21 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" <eded@spookeasy.net>
wrote:

>
>"Merrick Baldelli" <mbaldelli@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:d4pn94tap4hr5s48s9vo70ater095kgjup@4ax.com...
>>
>> While it's true that it took a better part of 24 hours to get
>> ALL the programs running on the Windows Partition from scratch, I've
>
>I never understand that. It has never taken me more than about an hour
>(maybe an hour and a half including printer drivers) to get XP running
>(starting with formatting the drive). The last one I did was a 1.3G celeron
>with 512mb memory. It took under an hour and a half including downloading
>and installing SP3. But Ubuntu (Gutsy) (assuming the vid. card is
>supported) takes under an hour.

Oh, it's fairly easy to understand. If I were to run Windows
only (read: barebone), yeah you're exactly right! Windows is up and
running in about 45 - 60 minutes max. However, when I start adding
the two Service Packs that adds another 30 - 40 minutes. Then the 20+
GB of applications and games to the system and the appropriate updates
to programs that need auto-updates and checks. Add the programs that
I use that routinely have version updates and is a waste of time to
keep in a local library, and that racks up even more time.

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity