XP *and* Vista co-exist in the market?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Steve Thackery
  • Start date Start date
S

Steve Thackery

I'm hoping this can be an intelligent debate about Microsoft's marketing,
without it being overrun by the usual bunch of offensive kids and anti-Vista
trolls. OK then.......

One of the things Microsoft wants to do is stop selling new XP licenses and
sell Vista licenses instead. I believe the current target for stopping
sales of XP is next month. I vaguely understand they have support cut-off
dates for XP of 2009 and 2014 (I may be wrong about those - but that isn't
central to my argument).

The thing is, why is MS to keen to stop selling XP? I've heard a couple of
reasons:

1/ They have to get a return on their investment in the development of
Vista.

Of course, this can't be right - a sale is a sale, and if they priced XP and
Vista the same, then they get the money whichever the customer chooses.

2/ They don't want the burden of supporting XP - with its security
shortcomings - for longer than necessary. Also, they would be supporting
two operating systems instead of one.

But this seems a bit weak to me. Microsoft is in charge of its own support
policy - it doesn't HAVE to support an OS past a certain date. They could
change the licensing terms for all new sales of XP after June of this year.

For instance, I reckon Microsoft could say something like: "XP will continue
on sale indefinitely, but after the existing support cut-off dates there
will be NO new features, NO bug fixes and we will only consider fixing the
most serious security breaches". I suspect that the support burden on MS
from such a policy would be minimal. They could even reduce it to zero by
not fixing any security breaches, either - "if you have a problem with XP
after the cut-off dates, upgrade to Vista".

I'm prepared to bet that LOADS of people would still buy XP on those terms.
After all, LOADS of people still happily use software every day which is no
longer supported. If it does the job, why not? Basically, previous
versions of almost any software are generally unsupported by their vendor.
In fact, Microsoft is probably rather unusual in continuing to provide
support for earlier versions of Office when a later version has been
released.

This policy - "buy XP if you insist, but our existing support cut-off dates
remain unchanged" - would be:

1/ Good for customers, because they get a free choice whether to buy an old,
stable OS with a familiar interface and a 2009/2014 support cut-off or a
new, fully supported OS with the latest new features.

2/ Good for MS, because they continue to sell new licences to contented
customers.

Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even if
it makes the customer unhappy?

In closing, let me just say this. I develop small software applications.
If a customer said to me "I'd like to buy the previous version of Thackery's
Wonder Widget, because I prefer the user interface, and yes, I accept you
won't be doing any more bugfixes on it", I'd sell it to them! Why on earth
not?

SteveT
 
"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> I'm hoping this can be an intelligent debate about Microsoft's marketing,
> without it being overrun by the usual bunch of offensive kids and
> anti-Vista trolls. OK then.......
>
> One of the things Microsoft wants to do is stop selling new XP licenses
> and sell Vista licenses instead. I believe the current target for
> stopping sales of XP is next month. I vaguely understand they have
> support cut-off dates for XP of 2009 and 2014 (I may be wrong about
> those - but that isn't central to my argument).
>
> The thing is, why is MS to keen to stop selling XP? I've heard a couple
> of reasons:
>
> 1/ They have to get a return on their investment in the development of
> Vista.
>
> Of course, this can't be right - a sale is a sale, and if they priced XP
> and Vista the same, then they get the money whichever the customer
> chooses.
>
> 2/ They don't want the burden of supporting XP - with its security
> shortcomings - for longer than necessary. Also, they would be supporting
> two operating systems instead of one.
>
> But this seems a bit weak to me. Microsoft is in charge of its own
> support policy - it doesn't HAVE to support an OS past a certain date.
> They could change the licensing terms for all new sales of XP after June
> of this year.
>
> For instance, I reckon Microsoft could say something like: "XP will
> continue on sale indefinitely, but after the existing support cut-off
> dates there will be NO new features, NO bug fixes and we will only
> consider fixing the most serious security breaches". I suspect that the
> support burden on MS from such a policy would be minimal. They could even
> reduce it to zero by not fixing any security breaches, either - "if you
> have a problem with XP after the cut-off dates, upgrade to Vista".
>
> I'm prepared to bet that LOADS of people would still buy XP on those
> terms. After all, LOADS of people still happily use software every day
> which is no longer supported. If it does the job, why not? Basically,
> previous versions of almost any software are generally unsupported by
> their vendor. In fact, Microsoft is probably rather unusual in continuing
> to provide support for earlier versions of Office when a later version has
> been released.
>
> This policy - "buy XP if you insist, but our existing support cut-off
> dates remain unchanged" - would be:
>
> 1/ Good for customers, because they get a free choice whether to buy an
> old, stable OS with a familiar interface and a 2009/2014 support cut-off
> or a new, fully supported OS with the latest new features.
>
> 2/ Good for MS, because they continue to sell new licences to contented
> customers.
>
> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even
> if it makes the customer unhappy?
>
> In closing, let me just say this. I develop small software applications.
> If a customer said to me "I'd like to buy the previous version of
> Thackery's Wonder Widget, because I prefer the user interface, and yes, I
> accept you won't be doing any more bugfixes on it", I'd sell it to them!
> Why on earth not?
>
> SteveT



If a product is still a main part of the portfolio, a company will be
obliged to provide full support for it..

--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
>have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even if
>it makes the customer unhappy?
>


Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft business partners
and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping those
entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
 
In article <exDFiq0tIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>,
Mike Hall - MVP <mikehall@remove_mvps.com> wrote:
>
>If a product is still a main part of the portfolio, a company will be
>obliged to provide full support for it..
>


Why?
 
> If a product is still a main part of the portfolio, a company will be
> obliged to provide full support for it..


On what basis do you make that assertion? How do you define "support"?
Microsoft defines what it means by "support" in its EULA. It could, with
perfect legality, sell XP as a "legacy" product with no planned fixes.

At least, that is my understanding.

I was looking at a graphics editor program the other day (can't remember its
name), which was available in two versions: the current one, which would
only run on W2K, XP and Vista, and an earlier version for those with
Win95/98. It was perfectly clear that there was no further support on the
older version, but it was for sale if you wanted it.

Seems absolutely fair and reasonable to me.

SteveT
 
"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eh3Fcy1tIHA.4876@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> If a product is still a main part of the portfolio, a company will be
>> obliged to provide full support for it..

>
> On what basis do you make that assertion? How do you define "support"?
> Microsoft defines what it means by "support" in its EULA. It could, with
> perfect legality, sell XP as a "legacy" product with no planned fixes.
>
> At least, that is my understanding.
>
> I was looking at a graphics editor program the other day (can't remember
> its name), which was available in two versions: the current one, which
> would only run on W2K, XP and Vista, and an earlier version for those with
> Win95/98. It was perfectly clear that there was no further support on the
> older version, but it was for sale if you wanted it.
>
> Seems absolutely fair and reasonable to me.
>



Fair and reasonable means nothing to lawyers. Microsoft is a big target.
That's in the US. In Europe there are laws saying you have to provide
support for current products. The EULA doesn't trump laws.

--
Kerry Brown
MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
 
the wharf rat wrote:
> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
>> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even if
>> it makes the customer unhappy?
>>

>
> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft business partners
> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping those
> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>


Yep, MS is happy and so are the vendors. Two out of three ain't bad, right?

Alias
 
the wharf rat wrote:

> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
>>have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even if
>>it makes the customer unhappy?
>>

>
>
> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
> in addition to the new operating system.


Stop lying mr rat, that is not a true statement.
Frank
 
Alias wrote:

> the wharf rat wrote:
>
>> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
>> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they
>>> must have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion -
>>> on why Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next
>>> month, even if it makes the customer unhappy?
>>>

>>
>> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new
>> software
>> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft
>> business partners
>> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping
>> those
>> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>>

>
> Yep, MS is happy and so are the vendors. Two out of three ain't bad, right?
>
> Alias


Get lost! You don't have Vista.
Loser!
Frank
 
"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:g0k0ug$1f1$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
>>have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even
>>if
>>it makes the customer unhappy?
>>

>
> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft business
> partners
> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping
> those
> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>



I am running the same hardware setup that I had for XP..


--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:g0k1ta$gfi$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <exDFiq0tIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>,
> Mike Hall - MVP <mikehall@remove_mvps.com> wrote:
>>
>>If a product is still a main part of the portfolio, a company will be
>>obliged to provide full support for it..
>>

>
> Why?
>



Apart from the updates, to keep XP alive, MS would have to produce the
installation media, manuals, packaging, all of which costs.

MS no longer want or need these costs as the employees are required to work
on Vista, Windows 7, and all of the other current and future product ranges

--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
> "the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:g0k0ug$1f1$1@reader2.panix.com...
>> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
>> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
>>> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month,
>>> even if
>>> it makes the customer unhappy?
>>>

>>
>> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
>> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft
>> business partners
>> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping
>> those
>> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>>

>
>
> I am running the same hardware setup that I had for XP..
>
>


Oh, so you're using Vista Basic?

Alias
 
> Fair and reasonable means nothing to lawyers. Microsoft is a big target.
> That's in the US. In Europe there are laws saying you have to provide
> support for current products. The EULA doesn't trump laws.


But it depends how you define "support" and how you define "current".
"Fixes for major security breaches only" would be fine. Here's another
approach: "No more fixes to XP, but anyone who buys XP after June 08 gets a
free upgrade to Vista whenever they want it". That would certainly count as
support.

Remember, MS wouldn't lose money on it: the alternative is to force you to
buy a Vista license after June, and if they price them the same, it would
all be the same to their bottom line.

Simple, then: "Buy XP or Vista, whichever you prefer. The support for
Vista consists of ongoing bug fixes for five years. The support for XP
consists of a free update to Vista." I think this WOULD stand up in court,
especially when you compare it to the alternative: "buy Vista or piss off".

SteveT
 
"Alias" <iamalias@nukethisgmail.com> wrote in message
news:eoeqWC3tIHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>> "the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:g0k0ug$1f1$1@reader2.panix.com...
>>> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
>>> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they
>>>> must
>>>> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>>> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month,
>>>> even if
>>>> it makes the customer unhappy?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
>>> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft business
>>> partners
>>> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping
>>> those
>>> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>>>

>>
>>
>> I am running the same hardware setup that I had for XP..
>>
>>

>
> Oh, so you're using Vista Basic?
>
> Alias


When I bought my XP MCE system (Compaq AMD X2) all you had to do is go to a
web site, and they sent me Vista Premium 32 bit for it. Never did install
it. XP MCE was just too stable except for SP3 which I had to rename a DLL
to get it to boot afterwards. Got it for a good price as at the time Vista
was rolling in.

I bet if they still produced systems with XP MCE they would fly off the
shelves even today.
 
"Alias" <iamalias@nukethisgmail.com> wrote in message
news:eoeqWC3tIHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>> "the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:g0k0ug$1f1$1@reader2.panix.com...
>>> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
>>> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they
>>>> must
>>>> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>>> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month,
>>>> even if
>>>> it makes the customer unhappy?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
>>> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft business
>>> partners
>>> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with keeping
>>> those
>>> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>>>

>>
>>
>> I am running the same hardware setup that I had for XP..
>>
>>

>
> Oh, so you're using Vista Basic?
>
> Alias



Nope.. I am running Vista Ultimate.. all bells and whistles..


--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
"Steve Thackery" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> I'm hoping this can be an intelligent debate about Microsoft's marketing,
> without it being overrun by the usual bunch of offensive kids and
> anti-Vista trolls. OK then.......


Anti-Vista isn't neccessarily anti-Microsoft. Many people try Vista, then
decide they don't like it. My last purchase was deliberately Vista. I
wanted to try it and with an open mind. My first impressions were WOW. I
loved the Aero. I dived right in.

But then as I tried to do things outside of simple email and web surfing, I
ran into issues. Performance was a biggie. Copy of large files to/from
disk and over the network, I couldn't believe how long it was taking. Then
I discovered missing pieces like the policy editor to get Vista working with
my storage systems. I did eventually get them to map the drives, but had to
turn security off to do so, which I didn't like and have since re-enabled
security.

I had at least one piece of software needing upgrade, but I knew that in
advance. But because I coud resolve the above issues, I deferred making
Vista my primary workstation. It simply is not ready for me. I also timed
my purchase a few weeks in advance if SP1 as I thought it would fix more
issues than it did.

> One of the things Microsoft wants to do is stop selling new XP licenses
> and sell Vista licenses instead. I believe the current target for
> stopping sales of XP is next month. I vaguely understand they have
> support cut-off dates for XP of 2009 and 2014 (I may be wrong about
> those - but that isn't central to my argument).


Ford could also stop selling cars and only sell F450's too.

> The thing is, why is MS to keen to stop selling XP? I've heard a couple
> of reasons:
>
> 1/ They have to get a return on their investment in the development of
> Vista.
>
> Of course, this can't be right - a sale is a sale, and if they priced XP
> and Vista the same, then they get the money whichever the customer
> chooses.


It is pretty obvious, Microsoft isn't about choices, it what WeSaySo Corp
says goes.

> 2/ They don't want the burden of supporting XP - with its security
> shortcomings - for longer than necessary. Also, they would be supporting
> two operating systems instead of one.


Burden? It is seasoned and stable code compared to Vista. They don't have
to re-write XP or XP x64.... just maintain it with newer drivers and it
would work for some time yet to come. And it wouldn't take billions and 5
years to produce like Vista.

> But this seems a bit weak to me. Microsoft is in charge of its own
> support policy - it doesn't HAVE to support an OS past a certain date.
> They could change the licensing terms for all new sales of XP after June
> of this year.


They could. You could sum up the EULA as you have no rights, Microsoft has
all rights. You don't have to read the 50KB of it to get the message.

> For instance, I reckon Microsoft could say something like: "XP will
> continue on sale indefinitely, but after the existing support cut-off
> dates there will be NO new features, NO bug fixes and we will only
> consider fixing the most serious security breaches". I suspect that the
> support burden on MS from such a policy would be minimal. They could even
> reduce it to zero by not fixing any security breaches, either - "if you
> have a problem with XP after the cut-off dates, upgrade to Vista".


Would you buy a car in 2006 knowing you couldn't get get parts and a tune-up
in 2008?

> I'm prepared to bet that LOADS of people would still buy XP on those
> terms. After all, LOADS of people still happily use software every day
> which is no longer supported. If it does the job, why not? Basically,
> previous versions of almost any software are generally unsupported by
> their vendor. In fact, Microsoft is probably rather unusual in continuing
> to provide support for earlier versions of Office when a later version has
> been released.
>
> This policy - "buy XP if you insist, but our existing support cut-off
> dates remain unchanged" - would be:
>
> 1/ Good for customers, because they get a free choice whether to buy an
> old, stable OS with a familiar interface and a 2009/2014 support cut-off
> or a new, fully supported OS with the latest new features.


Most PCs you buy today (2008) will be retired by 2014. 6 years.

> 2/ Good for MS, because they continue to sell new licences to contented
> customers.


Good point except for the contented customers part. Vista is a mess in
contented.

> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they must
> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next month, even
> if it makes the customer unhappy?


Not stupid at all. Greedy, over-priced yes. But brilliant.

You buy a PC with Vista. MS sells a license via the OEM. You find out
Premium or Basic is a insufficient for your needs.

Now Microsoft will sell you a second copy of Ultimate if you stay Vista or
if you need XP, they sell you a second copy. The second dip.

Now that active Vista development has ceased, they are on to Win7 leaving
Vista-unfinished into maintenance mode the idea is that people will be so
sick of Vista, they will blindly buy Win7 right away. The triple dip.

In the end, Microsoft will sell up to 3 OSes for 1 PC bought today.

> In closing, let me just say this. I develop small software applications.
> If a customer said to me "I'd like to buy the previous version of
> Thackery's Wonder Widget, because I prefer the user interface, and yes, I
> accept you won't be doing any more bugfixes on it", I'd sell it to them!
> Why on earth not?


Because it forces you onto the Microsoft OS tread mill. Microsoft has
openly stated, they really want OS changes every 3 years. But the public,
including business wants a longer and more stable life cycle. XP is in it's
prime and while not new and flashy, it does not come with Vista beta testing
problems.

Take EeePC. Microsoft is taking XP out of the closet as Vista is too much
of a hog to run on a EeePC. And EeePC runs Linux. And EeePC is selling.
And Microsoft WeSaySo marketing is pissed so many are seeing Linux can and
does work. Our dependency on Microsoft is artificial and hype.

I am not anti-Vista, it just inst ready. That is why I keep my main desktop
XP.

Nor am I am anti-Microsoft. While it is my opinion Vista sucks, I have run
every OS they have except for WinMe from DOS 2.0 forward. I have run many
others.

And for the billions spent, a so called mature development environment, 5+
years in development, starting with an existing code base, Microsoft should
be embarased at Vista performance and quality.

Since you develop small applications, keep your code portable. If Win7 goes
down like Vista, business isn't going to bite the triple dip, it might be
the catalyst for appliance PCs based on Linux for $300. In which case, you
can move faster to keep your customers happy.
 
Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
> "Alias" <iamalias@nukethisgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eoeqWC3tIHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>>> "the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g0k0ug$1f1$1@reader2.panix.com...
>>>> In article <u6ihweztIHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
>>>> Steve Thackery <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously the marketing machine in Microsoft isn't stupid, and they
>>>>> must
>>>>> have considered this. Does anyone know - or have an opinion - on why
>>>>> Microsoft are forcing their customers to use Vista after next
>>>>> month, even if
>>>>> it makes the customer unhappy?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because Vista requires that you purchase new hardware and new software
>>>> in addition to the new operating system. That makes Microsoft
>>>> business partners
>>>> and subsidiaries happy. Microsoft is far more concerned with
>>>> keeping those
>>>> entities happy than with anything a customer might think.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am running the same hardware setup that I had for XP..
>>>
>>>

>>
>> Oh, so you're using Vista Basic?
>>
>> Alias

>
>
> Nope.. I am running Vista Ultimate.. all bells and whistles..
>
>


So you bought the machine knowing that you would need it for Vista.
Enough said and thanks for stepping into the trap.

Alias
 
"Mike Hall - MVP" <mikehall@remove_mvps.com> wrote in message
news:%233Ekp$3tIHA.4716@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

>> Oh, so you're using Vista Basic?
>>
>> Alias

>
>
> Nope.. I am running Vista Ultimate.. all bells and whistles..


So did you pay $500+ for a full Ultimate?
 
> Would you buy a car in 2006 knowing you couldn't get get parts and a
> tune-up in 2008?


Not a good analogy. Unlike a car, software is just bits. Bits never wear
out. I mean, seriously, you could go into your attic and find that old copy
of Windows 3.11 and install it on your current machine.

It will have exactly the same strengths and weaknesses, bugs and
shortcomings as it had when you put it in the attic ten years ago. It never
needs "parts" or a "tune-up" because it isn't mechanical and it can't wear
out. It's just bits.

I repeat: LOTS of people use software which is YEARS out of date and totally
unsupported - in some cases the vendor has disappeared. But guess what? It
works exactly like it always did (including with the same bugs it always
had).

That will be true for XP, too. The only thing that could render XP unusable
is if there were a major rethink of PC hardware. Until then, it will just
work. It doesn't NEED ongoing support to keep "just working".

I repeat: I honestly can't see any LOGICAL reason why MS shouldn't let you
continue buying XP indefinitely, PROVIDED the EULA is modified to say
"support ceases in 2009/2014, so caveat emptor". Then it is perfectly clear
to the customer exactly what they are buying.

In many ways, it's just like buying a new television with a two year
guarantee. In effect, the contract with the buyer is that the manufacturer
will support it against failure for two years. After that they wash their
hands of it. If it breaks, it's the customer's problem. MS could do
exactly the same with XP.

And as I said, if it's priced the same as Vista then MS has got your money
either way. Why should they care whether it's for an XP license or a Vista
license?

SteveT
 
> In the end, Microsoft will sell up to 3 OSes for 1 PC bought today.

Canuck, I don't think I really buy your "conspiracy theory" version of
Microsoft's Vista marketing tactics - selling you a crap OS so you have to
upgrade once or twice more. I think Vista is below par for three reasons:

1/ The current code base has "gone critical" - much of it is top heavy,
messy, riddled with legacy workarounds and compatibility bodges, and has
become almost unmaintainable (although see my next note).

2/ MS abandoned the development program for what would have been XP's
successor in 2003, after having already invested a few years of development
in it. The reason was Microsoft's belated realisation of the serious
security flaws in their current OS architecture. In fact Vista was begun
again, almost from scratch - based in no small part on Server 2003 code. So
basically Vista was knocked together in a real hurry.

3/ I get the impression that some of the key, top personnel may have moved
into different roles, leaving the Vista development team somewhat less
competent that it should have been. For instance, although the UI is better
than XP's (in my opinion), it is riddled with inelegancies and
inconstencies, suggesting it really wasn't properly thought through. And
the file copying debacle is a classic example of incompetence: at RTM is was
bloodly hopeless, and even now, after SP1, it's still not as good as XP.
They "fixed" something that nobody thought was broken.

The first two points are easily confirmed just by reading various insider
blogs. The third is mostly just an impression I've got by reading between
the lines, and using Vista myself since it came out.

I don't think MS would deliberately release a below-par product, intending
you to pay again to get a fixed version. I don't think they would take such
a risky strategy now that there is significant competition in almost every
area they play in.

The best way to keep customers - I would suggest - is to do what Apple do.
They release a product which everybody thinks is superb, and make the next
product even better, and so on. By doing that they build up a committed
customer base who thing Apple walks on water, and who keep coming back for
more. I bet MS would like to do that if they could.

I think Microsoft's OS team has lost the plot - no more, no less.

SteveT
 
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