bootup problem

[db ´¯`·.. >]

ok,

switching back to the
former ram module
was an excellent idea.

the beeping is a significant
clue.

i did read in a post that you
are mechanically inclined, so
i do trust your sense of judgment
with your machine. and i
am confident that if it were
an easy problem, you would
have deduced it by now.

it would be a good idea
to check the mb manual
or the homesite to find
out what the beeps signify.

the beeps were engineered
into the machine and they have
a special significance when they
incur.

there is a possibility that
the cmos may have to
be re-flashed. this process,
if required, is described
at the homesite including
the file to use.

another thing that might
be of interest is to reset
the cmos. it entails removing
the cmos battery for about
20 minutes or so. but again,
check out the latest information
at the homesite. the battery
can be easily be replaced
with a new one.

i'm just curious but
has your clock been keeping
good time? is the time inside
the bios menu accurate?

also, is your harddrive
jumper set to master, slave
or master/slave? i know it
connected ok because in
one of your postings you
mentioned setting the HD0.

--

db ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·..><)))º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><)))º>¸.
><)))º>·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><)))º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><)))º>


..


"twizzle350" <twizzle350@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5FCC3886-D548-403E-A6F9-40EE3A17170D@microsoft.com...
> hi db
> i have just removed the 1gig ram stick. and installed a 512 ram stick,
> results are still the same on bootup, eg: mem test ok
> system clock ddr333
> checking for ide
> drives
> system stops/hangs
> hd light flashing every second with a beeping sound every second coming
> from the motherboard?
> 3 resets to bootup today.
> bios set to optimised defaults, as per mb manual.

 

[twizzle350]

hi w_tom
i have more testing results
will not boot straight into safe mode, only after a few resets.

voltage figures before power up when
power switched on
4x purple wires= 2x single 1x double 00.03v 3.4v
no green wire?
grey 4.69v
18.7v
orange 5.5v
5.13v
4x red wires 39.5v
4.97v
yellow 00.00v
12.69v

if you need me to carry out more tests.
make your request specific eg: DO A then TRY b etc

thanks

 

[w_tom]

On Jan 1, 9:12 am, twizzle350 <twizzle...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:
> i have more testing results
> will not boot  straight into safe mode, only after a few resets.
>
> voltage figures before power up    when power switched on
> 4x purple wires= 2x single  1x double   00.03v          3..4v
> no green wire?
> grey                                4.69v       18.7v
> orange                             5.5v          5.13v
> 4x red wires                     39.5v        4.97v
> yellow                              00.00v     12.69v

These numbers imply the power supply is not using standard ATX wire
colors. Those voltages also make no sense as should be obvious from
the procedure.

For example, there must be green wire so that power supply can be
ordered on. So what is the wire color being used?

Red wire could be the +5V. But that voltage must be zero (not 39.5V)
when not on. Yellow wire is 12 volts - and is excessive when on.
Orange voltage at 5.5V is excessive when on or off. Grey wire should
never be 18.7 volts. And only one purple wire should exist.

Verify wire colors using this chart:
http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html

For example, are your four purple wires really supposed to be red?
Your posted numbers make little sense and the 12 volts appears to be
too high. Before making definitive conclusions, first, all numbers
must make sense. Use the chart to locate where to measure any one of
yellow, red, orange, purple, green and gray wires. I suspect your
wires are not standard ATX colors. Also do not confuse volts (V) with
millivolts (mV).

Measurements must be when off and when power switch is pressed.
IOW, what does each voltage do when power switch is pressed. Does it
go to a constant voltage? Or does it rise and then fall after a
second? In your case, what voltages do one thing when the system does
not boot and do another thing when it does boot?

 

[twizzle350]

hi w_tom
my power connector has non std wirering coulors, so i will list the pin No`s
with what colour it should be.
pin 9 purple = 4.96v ---------- power swithed on = 4.96v
pin 14 green = 4.69v ---------- drops to = 18.7mv
pin 8 gray = 05.7mv -------- rising to = 5.13v
pins 1/2/11 orange = 00.9mv ------- rising to = 3.37v
pins 4/6/19/20 red = 39.4/6 mv ------ rising to = 4.98 / 5.00v
pin 10 yellow = 00.9mv ----------- rising to 13.76v drops
back to 12.53v

hope this helps

 

[w_tom]

On Jan 1, 12:33 pm, twizzle350 <twizzle...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:
> pin 9 purple = 4.96v ---------- power swithed on = 4.96v
> pin 14 green = 4.69v ---------- drops to = 18.7mv
> pin 8 gray = 05.7mv -------- rising to = 5.13v
> pins 1/2/11 orange = 00.9mv ------- rising to = 3.37v
> pins 4/6/19/20 red = 39.4/6 mv ------ rising to = 4.98 / 5.00v
> pin 10 yellow = 00.9mv ----------- rising to 13.76v drops
> back to 12.53v

I assume these 'on' voltages are when it boots. Also helpful would be
these voltages when it does not boot.

These voltages are good (when stable) but I am not comfortable with
them. Whereas the five volts (red wire) is correct, both 3.3 and 12
volts are high to almost exceeding maximum. This implies your 5 volt
computer load is larger than what the power supply was intended. To
maintain 5 volts, apparently, the supply will then supply too much
voltage to 3.3 (orange) and 12 (yellow) wires.

Now for what may be a problem. The 12 volts rises excessively before
dropping back to a high but in spec 12.53. This is not good. Is this
spike even higher when the computer does not boot? Anything you do to
eliminate that overvoltage would make you system more reliable in the
long term.

Again, we don't have what voltages do when the computer does not
boot. That would be helpful to better understand your 'does not boot
the first three times' problem. A new power supply must not do that
'excessive 12 volts on power up'. New power supply may not solve
your booting problem. But new supply should eliminate this other
unacceptable excessive voltage (if not, then another problem exists
elsewhere). You may have two problems or this 'excessive 12 volts on
power up' may have created another problem. Eliminate the 'excessive
12 volts' problem, then use meter again to establish the integrity of
a modified power supply 'system'.

Again, before replacing the supply, first learn what those voltages
are when computer does not properly boot. Again, I assume these are
voltages when it does boot.

Meanwhile, we repair things mostly to learn (not to save money).
Some knowledge. The power supply controller must be powered even when
the computer is off. Therefore the purple wire keeps the power supply
controller operational.

Green wire is the power supply controller telling the power supply
to power on; voltage drops to near zero. Grey wire is monitoring
circuits inside power supply reporting back to the controller that all
voltages are good (I was hoping to see this signal not happen when
computer did not boot). CPU does not operate (does not boot) until
power supply controller sees this Power Good (grey wire) signal.

Generally, orange, red, and yellow wires have less than 2 seconds to
stabilize (and should never exceed maximum voltage). If not within
spec, then the power supply controller powers off computer, which may
be your problem.

 

[twizzle350]

"w_tom" wrote:

On Jan 1, 12:33 pm, twizzle350 <twizzle...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:
pin 9 purple = 4.96v ---------- power swithed on = 4.96v
pin 14 green = 4.69v ---------- drops to = 18.7mv
pin 8 gray = 05.7mv -------- rising to = 5.13v
pins 1/2/11 orange = 00.9mv ------- rising to = 3.37v
pins 4/6/19/20 red = 39.4/6 mv ------ rising to = 4.98 / 5.00v
pin 10 yellow = 00.9mv ----------- rising to 13.76v drops
back to 12.53v

I assume these 'on' voltages are when it boots. Also helpful would be
these voltages when it does not boot.

hi w_tom
i am afraid that these figures are the same for booting and non booting.
the pwr supply that is fitted, is an etech mtp400,

i can now follow your replies ok please bear in mind that i do not have
any computer diagnostic skills, ( motor machanic yes )

by the sound of it my pwr supply needs replacing for a start ??
if so, i have been looking at a thermaltake 500w ?

i await your reply.
many thanks mike

 

[w_tom]

On Jan 2, 1:23 pm, twizzle350 <twizzle...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:
> i am afraid that these figures are the same for booting and non booting.
> the pwr supply that is fitted, is an etech mtp400,

Same skills used for electronics is also how I learned to fix so
many automobiles AND discover why those failures were directly
traceable to management. Cars designed by bean counters who did not
even know how to drive. What happens when all cars of that year are
built with no valve guides? I did not just learn how to do a valve
job. I asked some embarrassing questions (as I do with computers) to
learn those missing valve guides were directly traceable to Henry Ford
and his cost control programs. Learned because one should never just
fix something. One should also know why so that the problem is
solved; symptoms are not cured.

Back to your current problem. If those same voltage readings occur
during no boot, then power supply is not the component causing boot
failure. That excessive voltage on 12 volts during power up would not
harm electronics. But due to a slow response by multimeters, then
possible is a 12 volts well exceeding 13.76. Fact that 12 volts is
excessive on startup means the power supply should be replaced - even
if it does not cause boot failure. But the immediate reason for your
boot failures is elsewhere.

The list of parts that can shutdown a computer is short. Memory,
CPU, power supply system, sound card, video controller, and some
motherboard functions. But in your case, the shutdown is also
occurring (if I remember correctly) before Windows boots (eliminating
sound card) and sometimes before BIOS even executes a memory test
(eliminating memory). We have eliminated power supply system as a
suspect. CPU works just fine once system is booted (eliminates CPU).
Video controller only works in the simplest (Mode 3 or 7) operation
when booting. Video card is possible but not a likely reason for
failure. Only left are some motherboard functions (with a remote
possibility that video controller is the suspect).

Why is the motherboard defective? Did that spiking 12 volts create
a motherboard failure? Well we would know better if the 12 volts
could be monitored with an oscilloscope. That probably will not
happen. You could try any other video controller just to eliminate
that remote possibility. However it appears you have two suspects.
One that may or may not have been causing your boot failures (power
supply) and another that is the only remaining suspect (motherboard).

How to select a power supply? Do not get lost in the hype over
watts. 500 watts is typically gross overkill. But those who don't
know electricity will hype watts and dollars as the only power supply
metric. Those who learned from free markets have better benchmarks.
Any decent product will provide a long list of numeric specs in
writing. Only 1% of us will understand those specs (just like cars).
But if those specs are provided, then the 1% who know can 'blow the
whistle'.

How to sell power supplies that do not conform to minimum
standards? Hide the numbers. Don't provide the long list of specs so
that the 1% have no facts. Then many functions required even in 1970
and required by Intel specs can be forgotten to increase profits.
Some examples of numeric specs that should be in writing:
Specification compliance: ATX 2.03 & ATX12V v1.1
Short circuit protection on all outputs
Over voltage protection
Over power protection
100% hi-pot test
100% burn in, high temperature cycled on/off
PFC harmonics compliance: EN61000-3-2 + A1 + A2
EMI/RFI compliance: CE, CISPR22 & FCC part 15 class B
Safety compliance: VDE, TUV, D, N, S, Fi, UL, C-UL & CB
Hold up time, full load: 16ms. typical
Efficiency; 100-120VAC and full range: >65%
Dielectric withstand, input to frame/ground: 1800VAC, 1sec.
Dielectric withstand, input to output: 1800VAC, 1sec.
Ripple/noise: 1%
MTBF, full load @ 25°C amb.: >100k hrs

Such power supplies should also costs about $60 retail. That does
not say a $60 power supply is sufficient. Such reverse logic does not
apply. It only says the full retail price of a supply containing
required functions would be at least $60.

A more than sufficient supply could be 350 watts. That same supply
may be rated by another manufacturer as 500 watts. And neither
manufacturer was lying. It's called number games. The game works
only when most customers (many who would make recommendations) don't
know technology; do only as a bean counter would do; compare numbers
without knowing what those numbers mean.

Useful are current (amp) numbers for each voltage. Start with
current numbers for the original supply. Based upon your meter
numbers, the +5V (red wire) had a heavier load (compared to its max
current number). Your new supply should meet the same current numbers
listed for 3.3, 5, and 12 volts. And hopefully, the new supply has an
even larger number for the 5 volt current spec. If not, well, at
least the new supply should have same or greater current numbers
compared to the original supply. Ignore the watt number. Instead
review current numbers for each voltage.

As noted earlier, when you provided numbers, then others with better
knowledge can add additional facts.

When the supply is replaced (do it before replacing motherboard),
then take voltage readings to confirm that new supply is functional
and sufficient - the two minute procedure - and does not spike the 12
volts.

A final observation. 12 volts powers another power supply system
installed for and located adjacent to the CPU. Those upright
cylinders are called electrolytic capacitors. One type of failure
means the capacitors bulge - top pushes out. A visual examination
may provide some useful information. Pictures of a failing capacitor:
http://www.badcaps.net/images/caps/kt7/image005.png

Provided from numbers identify two suspects, better information for
selecting a new power supply unique to your computer's load, lessons
learned from the failure, and a shorter list of things to examine. As
I said early on, your posts will only be as helpful as informatiion
provided. Two minutes to obtain numbers results in much new
information.