Alias wrote:

> dennis@home wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>

>>

>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

>>

>> Hi, alias, you are one of the ones who has been afraid to upgrade in

>> the past,

>

>

> False. Where did you get that idea?

>

>> how did it go this time?

>> Have the wobbly windows made your life better?

>

>

> Why would you think that or are you being facetious again?

>

> Alias

 

You're accusing someone else of being "facetious"?

You're sick!

Frank

On Fri, 23 May 2008 10:15:02 +0100, Mike P wrote:

>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>

> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>

> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop OS. I'm IT

> support manager for one of the biggest pharma companies in the world.

> There isn't a hope in hell of us ever going to Linux, mainly because of

> the reasons stated above but also we have 40,000 users worldwide. Where

> would the money come to retrain them all? Who is going to pay for my

> staff's time to rebuild all those machines with Linux on them? Who's

> going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a totally new OS?

> What are our customers going to say when the documents we create and

> send them don't open or format correctly on their Windows boxes?

 

So. You don't think big non-computing companies like big pharma lead

anything in computers?

 

You will pay to rebuild Vista no doubt, but not Linux. Goes to show the

Dilbert principle is alive and well at your company.

 

40,000 * 1,000 for MS stuff = $40M (OS, Off, AV, support)

Hardware upgrade (Vists) = $80M

=======

$120M Vista

 

or

 

40,000 * 0 for Linux stuff = $0 (Everything included)

Hardware upgrade (Linux) = $0

=======

$0 Linux

 

Costs in above does not include someone dropping in a CD and say

"install" it. That is a fixed cost either way. Because if you have

40,000 users I am sure you burn your own corporate wide standard images.

> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT. We had 4

> different word processing apps at my first company, none of which could

> talk to the other without an add-on and lots of pissing about.

 

Open Office does not have that problem. You are thinking of the

Microsoft issues when it came into places using Word Perfect and the

like. Microsoft even had problems with it own formats. In fact, if you

like standards your short cards in the deck if you do not adopt Open

Office PDQ. It supports standards NOW. No promises, works right now.

And you can use Open Office with Linux, Vista, XP and others. It even

saves .DOC for the hold outs.

> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think if it

> had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it would probably

> be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it didn't, and it won't.

> Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home, and I set my gran up with one

> running Ubuntu recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>

> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for less than

> £300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just works when the user

> logs in. It sees all the servers, the drives map. It does it perfectly.

> OK, it's Windoze, but nothing is perfect. ..

>

> Mike P

 

From work, there are two ways to approach it. Proactive and reactive.

 

Proactive would be loading Open Office on new PCs, be they XP, Vista or

Linux. Same with FireFox.

 

Reactive will be I/T just takes the easy political rought and pops for MS-

Office. One day finding out 20% of their users using Open Office of 5

different versions. And friends sending ODF files to users will drive it.

 

Most shows will do the later.

Mike P wrote:

> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

> news:g16pmg$ftl$1@aioe.org...

>> Mike P wrote:

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:g16nap$pf1$2@aioe.org...

>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the sort

>>>>>>>>>>> who want

>>>>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are those

>>>>>>>>>>> who're

>>>>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the short

>>>>>>>>>>> term) and

>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free,

>>>>>>>>>>> particularly

>>>>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency, etc.)

>>>>>>>>>>> and assume

>>>>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so cosmetically

>>>>>>>>>>> made-up

>>>>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can keep

>>>>>>>>>>> typing on

>>>>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and the

>>>>>>>>>>> open source

>>>>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try and

>>>>>>>>>>> cater to

>>>>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is a

>>>>>>>>>>> cornucopia of

>>>>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the expense of

>>>>>>>>>>> the hard

>>>>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of itself

>>>>>>>>>>> and is

>>>>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers sitting

>>>>>>>>>>> in front

>>>>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and spending

>>>>>>>>>>> only

>>>>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that they

>>>>>>>>>>> know isn't

>>>>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products that

>>>>>>>>>>> are

>>>>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is

>>>>>>>>>>> compatible

>>>>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>>>>>>> should you

>>>>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice among the

>>>>>>>>>>> Linux

>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux. Linux

>>>>>>>>>>> users are

>>>>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around. They

>>>>>>>>>>> have

>>>>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because his

>>>>>>>>>>> article is

>>>>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop OS.

>>>>>>>>> I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma companies in

>>>>>>>>> the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever going to Linux,

>>>>>>>>> mainly because of the reasons stated above but also we have 40,000

>>>>>>>>> users worldwide. Where would the money come to retrain them all?

>>>>>>>>> Who is going to pay for my staff's time to rebuild all those

>>>>>>>>> machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a totally

>>>>>>>>> new OS? What are our customers going to say when the documents we

>>>>>>>>> create and send them don't open or format correctly on their

>>>>>>>>> Windows boxes?

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT. We

>>>>>>>>> had 4 different word processing apps at my first company, none of

>>>>>>>>> which could talk to the other without an add-on and lots of pissing

>>>>>>>>> about.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think if

>>>>>>>>> it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it would

>>>>>>>>> probably be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it didn't, and

>>>>>>>>> it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home, and I set my

>>>>>>>>> gran up with one running Ubuntu recently, so I'm not *against*

>>>>>>>>> Linux per se.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for less

>>>>>>>>> than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just works when

>>>>>>>>> the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the drives map. It does

>>>>>>>>> it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be trained

>>>>>>>> or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be trained.

>>>>>>>> What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for the software

>>>>>>>> itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is free. If you want

>>>>>>>> your company to stay in the past, don't train them to use Ubuntu and

>>>>>>>> train them to use Vista and fork out the money for new hardware.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>>>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is true.

>>>>> That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and sensibly. Last

>>>>> virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>>>> Sure.

>>>>

>>>>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works very

>>>>>>> well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did, Vista isn't

>>>>>>> expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and our corporate

>>>>>>> image would be set as we've set XP up so there wouldn't be a great

>>>>>>> deal of change.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no longer

>>>>>>> supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle then are

>>>>>>> replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT departments. So

>>>>>>> we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary. It's not "staying in the

>>>>>>> past", it's good business sense to use something that works reliably,

>>>>>>> which contrary to Linux users beliefs, Windows does in a corporate

>>>>>>> environment when set up correctly.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and other

>>>>>>> software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory software etc )

>>>>>>> that only works on Windoze.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>>>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think not.

>>>>> Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to happen. Linux

>>>>> won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my lifetime. I'm 36..

>>>> Ever hear of Enron? TWA? Pan Am? No one thought they would go out of

>>>> business either. MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

>>>> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the paying

>>>> public is stupid enough to let that continue? Linux won't put MS out of

>>>> business MS will.

>>>>

>>> Pan-Am never recovered from Lockerbie, and TWA's dodgy

>>> maintenance/Boeing's iffy design led to TWA 800 disintegrating 14000ft

>>> above the Atlantic, from which the the company never recovered.

>>> Enron? well, they were just all bent weren't they?

>>>

>>> Mike P

>> So you see my point?

>>

>> Alias

>

> Sort of, but I doubt mad Libyans are going to blow MS up

>

> -)

>

> Mike P

>

>

 

No, it will be the blatant disdain that MS holds for their paying

customers that will do it, not some terrorist attack.

 

Alias

Alias wrote:

> Mike P wrote:

>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>

>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>

>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the sort who

>>>> want

>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are those who're

>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the short

>>>> term) and

>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free, particularly

>>>> software."

>>>>

>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and completely

>>>> useless

>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency, etc.) and

>>>> assume

>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so cosmetically

>>>> made-up

>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can keep

>>>> typing on

>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>

>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any community,

>>>> it has

>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and the open

>>>> source

>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try and cater to

>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is a

>>>> cornucopia of

>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the expense of

>>>> the hard

>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the planet,

>>>> and yet

>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of itself and is

>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>

>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers sitting in

>>>> front

>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and spending only

>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that they know

>>>> isn't

>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>> anything good

>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like Microsoft

>>>> and

>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>

>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's nowhere

>>>> near

>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>> hardware and

>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products that are

>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>

>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is

>>>> compatible

>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too should you

>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice among the Linux

>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>

>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux. Linux

>>>> users are

>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around. They have

>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users vouching for

>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep figuring out

>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work together. They

>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the knowledge

>>>> that it

>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>

>>>> And so forth......

>>>>

>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because his

>>>> article is

>>>> right on the money....

>>>>

>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>

>>

>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>>

>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop OS. I'm

>> IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma companies in the

>> world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever going to Linux, mainly

>> because of the reasons stated above but also we have 40,000 users

>> worldwide. Where would the money come to retrain them all? Who is

>> going to pay for my staff's time to rebuild all those machines with

>> Linux on them?

>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a totally

>> new OS? What are our customers going to say when the documents we

>> create and send them don't open or format correctly on their Windows

>> boxes?

>>

>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT. We had 4

>> different word processing apps at my first company, none of which

>> could talk to the other without an add-on and lots of pissing about.

>>

>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think if it

>> had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it would

>> probably be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it didn't, and it

>> won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home, and I set my gran up

>> with one running Ubuntu recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>>

>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for less

>> than �300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just works when

>> the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the drives map. It does it

>> perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but nothing is perfect. ..

>>

>> Mike P

>>

>>

>

> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be trained or

> 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be trained. What's the

> difference?

 

Well, first of all Vista is a Windows OS that has a common thread of

user knowledge running thru it from all of the past Windows

itinerations, so there is a huge difference.

 

Vista is expensive,...

 

Not really. Especially when you're talking about 40,000 which includes

support, which you have to pay for when using linux.

 

both for the software itself and the

> upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is free.

 

Sorry pal, but nothing is free...nothing!

 

If you want your company to stay

> in the past,...

 

Train them to use linux.

 

don't train them to use Ubuntu and train them to use Vista

> and fork out the money for new hardware.

 

Obviously you failed accounting.

>

> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and malware

> from these Windows workstations.

 

You're the perfect candidate for linux as you have all of the required

personality attributes.

You hate MS, (required), you're a fanatic and a zealot (required) and

you're a lying troll (optional).

Frank

On Fri, 23 May 2008 11:00:56 +0100, Mike P wrote:

> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and other

> software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory software etc ) that

> only works on Windoze.

 

BTW, this is a good reason to stay with MS-Windows for the short term.

 

Then I guess you are in for a world of hurt if Microsoft wants $250 more

for Win7... or forced to do Vista and you are so locked in.

 

From the long term, make all new apps web based on standards and not

depend so much on the OS being used. Who knows, maybe the doctor has a

iPod, or a Blackberry. Assuming a specific Microsoft OS/Client is

hazardous to longevity. MS plans new OS roll outs every 3 years, or so

they have stated.

In article <slrng3dnng.ms8.jedi@nomad.mishnet>, JEDIDIAH

<jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

> > " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is compatible

> > with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too should you

>

> A Mac will have the same problem. A Mac will suffer from this more.

 

WHAT?

According to support articles and discussions, real experience, and

reviews in journals, Mac OS has this problem _least_ of EVERY OS!

 

In fact, I can't think of any anecdote that supports this claim.

Alias wrote:

> Mike P wrote:

>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>

>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>

>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the sort

>>>>>> who want

>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are those

>>>>>> who're

>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the short

>>>>>> term) and

>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free, particularly

>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency, etc.)

>>>>>> and assume

>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so cosmetically

>>>>>> made-up

>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can keep

>>>>>> typing on

>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and the open

>>>>>> source

>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try and

>>>>>> cater to

>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is a

>>>>>> cornucopia of

>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the expense of

>>>>>> the hard

>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of itself

>>>>>> and is

>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers sitting

>>>>>> in front

>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and spending

>>>>>> only

>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that they know

>>>>>> isn't

>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products that are

>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is

>>>>>> compatible

>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>> should you

>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice among the

>>>>>> Linux

>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux. Linux

>>>>>> users are

>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around. They have

>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep figuring

>>>>>> out

>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work together.

>>>>>> They

>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because his

>>>>>> article is

>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>

>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>

>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>>>>

>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop OS.

>>>> I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma companies in

>>>> the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever going to Linux,

>>>> mainly because of the reasons stated above but also we have 40,000

>>>> users worldwide. Where would the money come to retrain them all? Who

>>>> is going to pay for my staff's time to rebuild all those machines

>>>> with Linux on them?

>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a totally

>>>> new OS? What are our customers going to say when the documents we

>>>> create and send them don't open or format correctly on their Windows

>>>> boxes?

>>>>

>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT. We had

>>>> 4 different word processing apps at my first company, none of which

>>>> could talk to the other without an add-on and lots of pissing about.

>>>>

>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think if

>>>> it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it would

>>>> probably be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it didn't, and it

>>>> won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home, and I set my gran up

>>>> with one running Ubuntu recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>>>>

>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for less

>>>> than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just works when

>>>> the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the drives map. It does

>>>> it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>

>>>> Mike P

>>>>

>>>>

>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be trained

>>> or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be trained. What's

>>> the difference? Vista is expensive, both for the software itself and

>>> the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is free. If you want your company

>>> to stay in the past, don't train them to use Ubuntu and train them to

>>> use Vista and fork out the money for new hardware.

>>>

>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and malware

>>> from these Windows workstations.

>>>

>>

>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>

>

> Yeah, riiiiiight.

 

Having trouble with the truth once again (as usual)!

>

>>

>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works very

>> well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did, Vista isn't

>> expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and our corporate image

>> would be set as we've set XP up so there wouldn't be a great deal of

>> change.

>>

>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no longer

>> supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle then are

>> replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT departments. So

>> we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary. It's not "staying in the

>> past", it's good business sense to use something that works reliably,

>> which contrary to Linux users beliefs, Windows does in a corporate

>> environment when set up correctly.

>>

>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and other

>> software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory software etc )

>> that only works on Windoze.

>>

>> Mike P

>

>

> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

 

Tell us when you think MS is going out of business? A date please.

Frank

Alias wrote:

>>>

>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>

>>

>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>

> Yeah, riiiiiight.

 

Is that in your religion? Most of us Windows users haven't seen a virus in

years. Get over it.

Hobbes wrote:

>

> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

> news:g16rrk$1fq$1@aioe.org...

>> Mike P wrote:

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:g16pmg$ftl$1@aioe.org...

>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:g16nap$pf1$2@aioe.org...

>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort who want

>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who're

>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> short term) and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free,

>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly

>>>>>>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency,

>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) and assume

>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so

>>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmetically made-up

>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> can keep typing on

>>>>>>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> the open source

>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try

>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cater to

>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is

>>>>>>>>>>>>> a cornucopia of

>>>>>>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> expense of the hard

>>>>>>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of

>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself and is

>>>>>>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers

>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting in front

>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> spending only

>>>>>>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that

>>>>>>>>>>>>> they know isn't

>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up

>>>>>>>>>>>>> with anything good

>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority

>>>>>>>>>>>>> of hardware and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping

>>>>>>>>>>>>> products that are

>>>>>>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> is compatible

>>>>>>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core

>>>>>>>>>>>>> too should you

>>>>>>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice

>>>>>>>>>>>>> among the Linux

>>>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have

>>>>>>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because

>>>>>>>>>>>>> his article is

>>>>>>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are

>>>>>>>>>>> valid.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop

>>>>>>>>>>> OS. I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma

>>>>>>>>>>> companies in the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever

>>>>>>>>>>> going to Linux, mainly because of the reasons stated above

>>>>>>>>>>> but also we have 40,000 users worldwide. Where would the

>>>>>>>>>>> money come to retrain them all? Who is going to pay for my

>>>>>>>>>>> staff's time to rebuild all those machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a

>>>>>>>>>>> totally new OS? What are our customers going to say when the

>>>>>>>>>>> documents we create and send them don't open or format

>>>>>>>>>>> correctly on their Windows boxes?

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT.

>>>>>>>>>>> We had 4 different word processing apps at my first company,

>>>>>>>>>>> none of which could talk to the other without an add-on and

>>>>>>>>>>> lots of pissing about.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I

>>>>>>>>>>> think if it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came

>>>>>>>>>>> out, it would probably be doing a lot better on the desktop,

>>>>>>>>>>> but it didn't, and it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs

>>>>>>>>>>> at home, and I set my gran up with one running Ubuntu

>>>>>>>>>>> recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS

>>>>>>>>>>> for less than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it

>>>>>>>>>>> just works when the user logs in. It sees all the servers,

>>>>>>>>>>> the drives map. It does it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but

>>>>>>>>>>> nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>> trained or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>> trained. What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for

>>>>>>>>>> the software itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is

>>>>>>>>>> free. If you want your company to stay in the past, don't

>>>>>>>>>> train them to use Ubuntu and train them to use Vista and fork

>>>>>>>>>> out the money for new hardware.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>>>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>>>>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>>>>>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is

>>>>>>> true. That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and

>>>>>>> sensibly. Last virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>>>>>> Sure.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP

>>>>>>>>> works very well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we

>>>>>>>>> did, Vista isn't expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it,

>>>>>>>>> and our corporate image would be set as we've set XP up so

>>>>>>>>> there wouldn't be a great deal of change.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no

>>>>>>>>> longer supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life

>>>>>>>>> cycle then are replaced, which is standard practice for

>>>>>>>>> corporate IT departments. So we won't upgrade until absolutely

>>>>>>>>> necessary. It's not "staying in the past", it's good business

>>>>>>>>> sense to use something that works reliably, which contrary to

>>>>>>>>> Linux users beliefs, Windows does in a corporate environment

>>>>>>>>> when set up correctly.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and

>>>>>>>>> other software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory

>>>>>>>>> software etc ) that only works on Windoze.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>>>>>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think

>>>>>>> not. Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to

>>>>>>> happen. Linux won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my

>>>>>>> lifetime. I'm 36..

>>>>>> Ever hear of Enron? TWA? Pan Am? No one thought they would go out

>>>>>> of business either. MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

>>>>>> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the

>>>>>> paying public is stupid enough to let that continue? Linux won't

>>>>>> put MS out of business MS will.

>>>>>>

>>>>> Pan-Am never recovered from Lockerbie, and TWA's dodgy

>>>>> maintenance/Boeing's iffy design led to TWA 800 disintegrating

>>>>> 14000ft above the Atlantic, from which the the company never

>>>>> recovered.

>>>>> Enron? well, they were just all bent weren't they?

>>>>>

>>>>> Mike P

>>>> So you see my point?

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>

>>> Sort of, but I doubt mad Libyans are going to blow MS up

>>>

>>> -)

>>>

>>> Mike P

>>

>> No, it will be the blatant disdain that MS holds for their paying

>> customers that will do it, not some terrorist attack.

>>

>> Alias

>

> What disdain does MS have for its customers?

 

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

 

Snip drivel.

 

Alias

"Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

news:g16svi$afq$1@aioe.org...

> Hobbes wrote:

>>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g16rrk$1fq$1@aioe.org...

>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:g16pmg$ftl$1@aioe.org...

>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:g16nap$pf1$2@aioe.org...

>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort who want

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who're

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short term) and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) and assume

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmetically made-up

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep typing on

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open source

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cater to

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is a

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cornucopia of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expense of the hard

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself and is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting in front

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spending only

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that they

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know isn't

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is compatible

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should you

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice among

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Linux

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because his

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> article is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are

>>>>>>>>>>>> valid.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop

>>>>>>>>>>>> OS. I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma

>>>>>>>>>>>> companies in the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever

>>>>>>>>>>>> going to Linux, mainly because of the reasons stated above but

>>>>>>>>>>>> also we have 40,000 users worldwide. Where would the money come

>>>>>>>>>>>> to retrain them all? Who is going to pay for my staff's time to

>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild all those machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>>>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a

>>>>>>>>>>>> totally new OS? What are our customers going to say when the

>>>>>>>>>>>> documents we create and send them don't open or format

>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly on their Windows boxes?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT.

>>>>>>>>>>>> We had 4 different word processing apps at my first company,

>>>>>>>>>>>> none of which could talk to the other without an add-on and

>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of pissing about.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think

>>>>>>>>>>>> if it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it

>>>>>>>>>>>> would probably be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it

>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't, and it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home,

>>>>>>>>>>>> and I set my gran up with one running Ubuntu recently, so I'm

>>>>>>>>>>>> not *against* Linux per se.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for

>>>>>>>>>>>> less than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just

>>>>>>>>>>>> works when the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the

>>>>>>>>>>>> drives map. It does it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but nothing

>>>>>>>>>>>> is perfect. ..

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>>> trained or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>>> trained. What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for the

>>>>>>>>>>> software itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is free.

>>>>>>>>>>> If you want your company to stay in the past, don't train them

>>>>>>>>>>> to use Ubuntu and train them to use Vista and fork out the money

>>>>>>>>>>> for new hardware.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>>>>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>>>>>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>>>>>>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is true.

>>>>>>>> That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and sensibly.

>>>>>>>> Last virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>>>>>>> Sure.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works

>>>>>>>>>> very well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did, Vista

>>>>>>>>>> isn't expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and our

>>>>>>>>>> corporate image would be set as we've set XP up so there wouldn't

>>>>>>>>>> be a great deal of change.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no

>>>>>>>>>> longer supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle

>>>>>>>>>> then are replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT

>>>>>>>>>> departments. So we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary. It's

>>>>>>>>>> not "staying in the past", it's good business sense to use

>>>>>>>>>> something that works reliably, which contrary to Linux users

>>>>>>>>>> beliefs, Windows does in a corporate environment when set up

>>>>>>>>>> correctly.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and other

>>>>>>>>>> software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory software

>>>>>>>>>> etc ) that only works on Windoze.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>>>>>>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think not.

>>>>>>>> Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to happen. Linux

>>>>>>>> won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my lifetime. I'm 36..

>>>>>>> Ever hear of Enron? TWA? Pan Am? No one thought they would go out of

>>>>>>> business either. MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

>>>>>>> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the

>>>>>>> paying public is stupid enough to let that continue? Linux won't put

>>>>>>> MS out of business MS will.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> Pan-Am never recovered from Lockerbie, and TWA's dodgy

>>>>>> maintenance/Boeing's iffy design led to TWA 800 disintegrating

>>>>>> 14000ft above the Atlantic, from which the the company never

>>>>>> recovered.

>>>>>> Enron? well, they were just all bent weren't they?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>> So you see my point?

>>>>>

>>>>> Alias

>>>>

>>>> Sort of, but I doubt mad Libyans are going to blow MS up

>>>>

>>>> -)

>>>>

>>>> Mike P

>>>

>>> No, it will be the blatant disdain that MS holds for their paying

>>> customers that will do it, not some terrorist attack.

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

>> What disdain does MS have for its customers?

>

> If you have to ask, you'll never know.

>

> Snip drivel.

>

> Alias

>

 

You snip the truth ... MS makes a ton of money because it "looks after" its

customers.

Ubuntu has no customers....only users with free time.

"Hobbes" <Hobbes@Calvins.lol> wrote in message news:g16t3n$bar$1@aioe.org...

>

> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

> news:g16svi$afq$1@aioe.org...

>> Hobbes wrote:

>>>

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:g16rrk$1fq$1@aioe.org...

>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:g16pmg$ftl$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:g16nap$pf1$2@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort who want

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who're

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short term) and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) and assume

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmetically made-up

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep typing on

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the open source

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cater to

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a cornucopia of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expense of the hard

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself and is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting in front

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spending only

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they know isn't

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is compatible

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should you

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> among the Linux

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his article is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are

>>>>>>>>>>>>> valid.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop

>>>>>>>>>>>>> OS. I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma

>>>>>>>>>>>>> companies in the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever

>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to Linux, mainly because of the reasons stated above but

>>>>>>>>>>>>> also we have 40,000 users worldwide. Where would the money

>>>>>>>>>>>>> come to retrain them all? Who is going to pay for my staff's

>>>>>>>>>>>>> time to rebuild all those machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a

>>>>>>>>>>>>> totally new OS? What are our customers going to say when the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents we create and send them don't open or format

>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly on their Windows boxes?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> We had 4 different word processing apps at my first company,

>>>>>>>>>>>>> none of which could talk to the other without an add-on and

>>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of pissing about.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I

>>>>>>>>>>>>> think if it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came

>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, it would probably be doing a lot better on the desktop,

>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it didn't, and it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs

>>>>>>>>>>>>> at home, and I set my gran up with one running Ubuntu

>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for

>>>>>>>>>>>>> less than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just

>>>>>>>>>>>>> works when the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> drives map. It does it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but

>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>>>> trained or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be

>>>>>>>>>>>> trained. What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for

>>>>>>>>>>>> the software itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is

>>>>>>>>>>>> free. If you want your company to stay in the past, don't train

>>>>>>>>>>>> them to use Ubuntu and train them to use Vista and fork out the

>>>>>>>>>>>> money for new hardware.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>>>>>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>>>>>>>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is true.

>>>>>>>>> That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and sensibly.

>>>>>>>>> Last virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>>>>>>>> Sure.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works

>>>>>>>>>>> very well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did,

>>>>>>>>>>> Vista isn't expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and

>>>>>>>>>>> our corporate image would be set as we've set XP up so there

>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be a great deal of change.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no

>>>>>>>>>>> longer supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle

>>>>>>>>>>> then are replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT

>>>>>>>>>>> departments. So we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary.

>>>>>>>>>>> It's not "staying in the past", it's good business sense to use

>>>>>>>>>>> something that works reliably, which contrary to Linux users

>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs, Windows does in a corporate environment when set up

>>>>>>>>>>> correctly.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and

>>>>>>>>>>> other software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory

>>>>>>>>>>> software etc ) that only works on Windoze.

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>>>>>>>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think

>>>>>>>>> not. Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to happen.

>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my lifetime. I'm

>>>>>>>>> 36..

>>>>>>>> Ever hear of Enron? TWA? Pan Am? No one thought they would go out

>>>>>>>> of business either. MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

>>>>>>>> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the

>>>>>>>> paying public is stupid enough to let that continue? Linux won't

>>>>>>>> put MS out of business MS will.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Pan-Am never recovered from Lockerbie, and TWA's dodgy

>>>>>>> maintenance/Boeing's iffy design led to TWA 800 disintegrating

>>>>>>> 14000ft above the Atlantic, from which the the company never

>>>>>>> recovered.

>>>>>>> Enron? well, they were just all bent weren't they?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>> So you see my point?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>

>>>>> Sort of, but I doubt mad Libyans are going to blow MS up

>>>>>

>>>>> -)

>>>>>

>>>>> Mike P

>>>>

>>>> No, it will be the blatant disdain that MS holds for their paying

>>>> customers that will do it, not some terrorist attack.

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>

>>> What disdain does MS have for its customers?

>>

>> If you have to ask, you'll never know.

>>

>> Snip drivel.

>>

>> Alias

>>

>

> You snip the truth ... MS makes a ton of money because it "looks after"

> its customers.

> Ubuntu has no customers....only users with free time.

 

Ubuntu is for geeks who enjoy tinkering with computers and getting nothing

done. Ubuntu is also for geeks who can't get dates or become good

productive citizens in social circles.

Alias wrote:

> Mike P wrote:

>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>

>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>

>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the sort

>>>>>>>> who want

>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are those

>>>>>>>> who're

>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the short

>>>>>>>> term) and

>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free, particularly

>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency, etc.)

>>>>>>>> and assume

>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so

>>>>>>>> cosmetically made-up

>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can

>>>>>>>> keep typing on

>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and the

>>>>>>>> open source

>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try and

>>>>>>>> cater to

>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is a

>>>>>>>> cornucopia of

>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the expense

>>>>>>>> of the hard

>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of itself

>>>>>>>> and is

>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers

>>>>>>>> sitting in front

>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and

>>>>>>>> spending only

>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that they

>>>>>>>> know isn't

>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products

>>>>>>>> that are

>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is

>>>>>>>> compatible

>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>>>> should you

>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice among

>>>>>>>> the Linux

>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux. Linux

>>>>>>>> users are

>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around. They

>>>>>>>> have

>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because his

>>>>>>>> article is

>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop OS.

>>>>>> I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma companies in

>>>>>> the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever going to Linux,

>>>>>> mainly because of the reasons stated above but also we have 40,000

>>>>>> users worldwide. Where would the money come to retrain them all?

>>>>>> Who is going to pay for my staff's time to rebuild all those

>>>>>> machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a

>>>>>> totally new OS? What are our customers going to say when the

>>>>>> documents we create and send them don't open or format correctly

>>>>>> on their Windows boxes?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT. We

>>>>>> had 4 different word processing apps at my first company, none of

>>>>>> which could talk to the other without an add-on and lots of

>>>>>> pissing about.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I think if

>>>>>> it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came out, it would

>>>>>> probably be doing a lot better on the desktop, but it didn't, and

>>>>>> it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs at home, and I set my

>>>>>> gran up with one running Ubuntu recently, so I'm not *against*

>>>>>> Linux per se.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for

>>>>>> less than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just works

>>>>>> when the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the drives map. It

>>>>>> does it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be

>>>>> trained or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be

>>>>> trained. What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for the

>>>>> software itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is free. If

>>>>> you want your company to stay in the past, don't train them to use

>>>>> Ubuntu and train them to use Vista and fork out the money for new

>>>>> hardware.

>>>>>

>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>

>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>

>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>

>>

>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is true.

>> That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and sensibly. Last

>> virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>

>

> Sure.

>

>>

>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works

>>>> very well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did, Vista

>>>> isn't expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and our

>>>> corporate image would be set as we've set XP up so there wouldn't be

>>>> a great deal of change.

>>>>

>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no longer

>>>> supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle then are

>>>> replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT departments.

>>>> So we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary. It's not "staying in

>>>> the past", it's good business sense to use something that works

>>>> reliably, which contrary to Linux users beliefs, Windows does in a

>>>> corporate environment when set up correctly.

>>>>

>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and other

>>>> software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory software etc )

>>>> that only works on Windoze.

>>>>

>>>> Mike P

>>>

>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>

>>

>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think not.

>> Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to happen. Linux

>> won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my lifetime. I'm 36..

>

>

> Ever hear of Enron?

 

Enron was a financial scandal. Enron did not manufacturer a product,

they were an energy distributor.

Try not to compare apples to oranges.

 

TWA? Pan Am?

 

These companies were bought and merged with others.

 

No one thought they would go out of

> business either.

 

Where do you get your financial info from? The linux ng's?

 

MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the paying

> public is stupid enough to let that continue?

 

No they don't. You're a known and admitted liar and thief. You've proly

been caught trying to rip off MS so you're pissed at them.

 

Linux won't put MS out of

> business MS will.

 

Got a date when that will happen?

Frank

On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:16:38 +0100, Mike P wrote:

> "Canuck57" <dave-no_spam@unixhome.net> wrote in message

> news:MXBZj.161353$Cj7.98729@pd7urf2no...

>>

>> "Mike P" <privacy@privacy.net> wrote in message

>> news:69o5njF349gvlU1@mid.individual.net...

>>>

>>> "the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message

>>> news:g165ig$epr$1@reader2.panix.com...

>>>> In article <69ng8mF33j2j8U1@mid.individual.net>, Mike P

>>>> <privacy@privacy.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are valid.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Oh, horseshit. "Wobbly windows" ? "Afraid to upgrade"? Give me a

>>>> break...

>>>>

>>>>>to rebuild all those machines with Linux on them?

>>>>

>>>> And the IT manager for one of the biggest companies in the world has

>>>> never heard of an incremental rollout?

>>>

>>> Support manager please, there's three more tiers of bloody managers

>>> above me before the IT director! Yes, I have organised many

>>> incremental rollouts, but in the heavily audited and regulated world

>>> of pharmaceuticals, all our departments worldwide share data,

>>> everything has to be compatible at all times. That won't happen if we

>>> rollout Linux to the business slowly now will it? When we went from

>>> Win95>2000, we had no problems. Win2k>XP no problems. If we now have

>>> machines running Linux and throw them into the mix, we'd have nothing

>>> but problems (solvable yes) but we don't *need* these problems and the

>>> extra expense.

>>>

>>>>>Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a totally

>>>>>new OS?

>>>>

>>>> Just a guess, mind you, but perhaps the same executives who

>>>> considered the cost of retraining when they decided that moving to a

>>>> new platform was a cost effective solution to having their business

>>>> held hostage to Redmond?

>>>

>>> yes, they'd love to give me millions of dollars to waste on something

>>> we don't need, make it essential to train all our staff on a load of

>>> new apps (do you know how much IT training costs here in the UK?) .

>>> Wed

>>>

>>>

>>>> In the cases where I've seen Linux make significant inroads on the

>>>> desktop it's uniformly been a "grassroots" movement. Typically a few

>>>> of the more technical employees will switch, and their success

>>>> convinces others. It's possible only in an organization that

>>>> encourages its employees

>>>> to think and gives them permission to innovate. That's probably why

>>>> you don't see it happen often.

>>>

>>> I think you'll find the company I work for one of the most innovative

>>> in it's field. Free thinking is encouraged, however making a decision

>>> to switch to Linux would be corporate suicide, certainley at present

>>> anyway. With Micro$ofts licencing, the prices of Windows on new

>>> machine being negligble, it just makes no sense whatsoever.

>>>

>>> Mike P

>>

>> The reasons you are likely having Linux problems is that you do not

>> have at least one experienced Linux mentor. Same thing happened with

>> Mainframers doing Windows and UNIX. A mess. For example, you don't

>> need to rebuild a desktop to run wobbly windows unless it is an old

>> release pre Compiz. Took me 20 minutes and Compiz was working great.

>>

>> My experience in such conversions is that there are 25% of the

>> admin/support staff that will not change. And use every opportunity to

>> sabotage change. Solution, lay them off and replace them. They are

>> usually also the ones that are not team players and a poor

>> understanding of what they do.

>>

>> And you get the same kind of problems on MS upgrades too. Unless of

>> course you are flush with cash burning a hole in your pocket, to update

>> every PC at once and have mastered Vista skills in advance.

>>

>>

> That's the thing. We don't need to train users to use Vista. We won't be

> using it. XP works perfectly at the moment for us, hopefully the next

> company wide upgrade will be the next version of Windows. It still

> *looks* like Windows if the settings are right, so there would be no

> need to retrain anyway.

>

> At current prices, I can pay for 10 years upgrades from MS under our

> licencing agreement, for the cost of 1 weeks basic Linux tech training

> ...

>

> Mike P

 

Hahaha. I will take that Linux contract for a good price then. I don't

believe you in upgrading 10 years of 40,000 is going to cost as much as 1

week in Linux training. My computer illiterate wife got a 10 minute

lesson and done.

 

As if you will not have to train them on Vista or Win7... Take a real

look at the menus. Linux is much more straight forward to use than

Vista. Vista menus dynamically re-arrange, Linux does not. While tech

people like it, you average user does not.

 

Linux isn't that heard to learn how to use. That myth died years ago.

<snipped alt.os.windows-xp, because I am using the MS server direct and

crossposting is silly and usually done merely to start flame wars>

 

"Hobbes" <Hobbes@Calvins.lol> wrote in message news:g16t3n$bar$1@aioe.org...

> You snip the truth ... MS makes a ton of money because it "looks after"

its

> customers.

 

Woohoo!

The truth is out there.

Too bad all the MS haters won't admit it ever.

:)

>Ubuntu is for geeks who enjoy tinkering with computers and getting nothing

>done. Ubuntu is also for geeks who can't get dates or become good

>productive citizens in social circles.

 

This newsgroup is for retards, control freaks and Microsoft apologists

that have no life outside this newsgroup and think it is their duty to

defend the boys of Redmond and try to silence anyone presenting

factual information about how bad Vista really is.

 

I see both you and Frank have devoted your lives to that task. How

precious. Just one question, what do you get out of it? Obviously

Microsoft doesn't pay you, clearly you know you are laughed at. You

also have to know that Microsoft often deletes both your posts and

Frank's from their news server. So in summary you got to know nearly

everybody here sees you two twits as damn fools and losers. Frank

obviously enjoys those titles. Do you too?

"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

news:otud3419cf9h2u198oicchjtolg5c8f2lj@4ax.com...

> This newsgroup is for retards, <snip>

 

Oh, cool..

 

Hi fellow retard!

:)

"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

news:otud3419cf9h2u198oicchjtolg5c8f2lj@4ax.com...

>

>>Ubuntu is for geeks who enjoy tinkering with computers and getting nothing

>>done. Ubuntu is also for geeks who can't get dates or become good

>>productive citizens in social circles.

>

> This newsgroup is for retards, control freaks and Microsoft apologists

> that have no life outside this newsgroup and think it is their duty to

> defend the boys of Redmond and try to silence anyone presenting

> factual information about how bad Vista really is.

>

> I see both you and Frank have devoted your lives to that task. How

> precious. Just one question, what do you get out of it? Obviously

> Microsoft doesn't pay you, clearly you know you are laughed at. You

> also have to know that Microsoft often deletes both your posts and

> Frank's from their news server. So in summary you got to know nearly

> everybody here sees you two twits as damn fools and losers. Frank

> obviously enjoys those titles. Do you too?

>

 

Could pose the EXACT same question to YOU.

On Fri, 23 May 2008 06:53:59 -1000, Mitch wrote:

> In article <slrng3dnng.ms8.jedi@nomad.mishnet>, JEDIDIAH

> <jedi@nomad.mishnet> wrote:

>

>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and is compatible

>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too should you

>>

>> A Mac will have the same problem. A Mac will suffer from this more.

>

> WHAT?

> According to support articles and discussions, real experience, and

> reviews in journals, Mac OS has this problem _least_ of EVERY OS!

>

> In fact, I can't think of any anecdote that supports this claim.

 

Correct.

 

Linux has the problem.

 

Windows does not.

Mac does not.

 

--

Moshe Goldfarb

Collector of soaps from around the globe.

Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:

http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

On Fri, 23 May 2008 10:30:54 -0700, "Bill Yanaire" <bill@yanaire.com>

wrote:

>

>"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

>news:otud3419cf9h2u198oicchjtolg5c8f2lj@4ax.com...

>>

>>>Ubuntu is for geeks who enjoy tinkering with computers and getting nothing

>>>done. Ubuntu is also for geeks who can't get dates or become good

>>>productive citizens in social circles.

>>

>> This newsgroup is for retards, control freaks and Microsoft apologists

>> that have no life outside this newsgroup and think it is their duty to

>> defend the boys of Redmond and try to silence anyone presenting

>> factual information about how bad Vista really is.

>>

>> I see both you and Frank have devoted your lives to that task. How

>> precious. Just one question, what do you get out of it? Obviously

>> Microsoft doesn't pay you, clearly you know you are laughed at. You

>> also have to know that Microsoft often deletes both your posts and

>> Frank's from their news server. So in summary you got to know nearly

>> everybody here sees you two twits as damn fools and losers. Frank

>> obviously enjoys those titles. Do you too?

>>

>

>Could pose the EXACT same question to YOU.

 

You could, but it would just be more of your lies.

>

"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

news:1g0e345etmptol13oruj3rnikuvgthu22f@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 23 May 2008 10:30:54 -0700, "Bill Yanaire" <bill@yanaire.com>

> wrote:

>

>>

>>"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

>>news:otud3419cf9h2u198oicchjtolg5c8f2lj@4ax.com...

>>>

>>>>Ubuntu is for geeks who enjoy tinkering with computers and getting

>>>>nothing

>>>>done. Ubuntu is also for geeks who can't get dates or become good

>>>>productive citizens in social circles.

>>>

>>> This newsgroup is for retards, control freaks and Microsoft apologists

>>> that have no life outside this newsgroup and think it is their duty to

>>> defend the boys of Redmond and try to silence anyone presenting

>>> factual information about how bad Vista really is.

>>>

>>> I see both you and Frank have devoted your lives to that task. How

>>> precious. Just one question, what do you get out of it? Obviously

>>> Microsoft doesn't pay you, clearly you know you are laughed at. You

>>> also have to know that Microsoft often deletes both your posts and

>>> Frank's from their news server. So in summary you got to know nearly

>>> everybody here sees you two twits as damn fools and losers. Frank

>>> obviously enjoys those titles. Do you too?

>>>

>>

>>Could pose the EXACT same question to YOU.

>

> You could, but it would just be more of your lies.

>>

>

 

You are so "full of it" you might as well run for a political office

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:4836f672$0$25176$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

> Alias wrote:

>>>>

>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>

>>>

>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>

>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>

> Is that in your religion? Most of us Windows users haven't seen a virus in

> years. Get over it.

>

 

I saw a virus once, my daughter bought it home from school about 15 years

ago.

It only got on her machine because she had to disable the AV to run the

program she had been given.

Just as well it was easy to remove using one of the many free AV programs.

Alias still hasn't grasped what the problem is with the Debian keys issue

and thinks the patch fixes the problem and not just what started the

problem. Of course like most Ubuntu users he doesn't understand enough to

actually be able to check if he has a problem and doesn't have any

anti-malware software to help him.

Alias wrote:

> Mike P wrote:

>

>> "Alias" <iamalias@removegmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:g16pmg$ftl$1@aioe.org...

>>

>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:g16nap$pf1$2@aioe.org...

>>>>

>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:g165o2$ub2$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>> news:g16382$8rt$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Mike P wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>>> news:g15vm4$8kk$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Moshe. Goldfarb wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.applematters.com/article/about-linux-and-why-nobody-seems-to-care1/

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " The general consensus seems to be that Mac users are the

>>>>>>>>>>>> sort who want

>>>>>>>>>>>> the best in quality, no expenses spared Windows users are

>>>>>>>>>>>> those who're

>>>>>>>>>>>> looking for the best bang for their buck (generally in the

>>>>>>>>>>>> short term) and

>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are the ones who want everything for free,

>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly

>>>>>>>>>>>> software."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " Some Linux users are easily dazzled by superfluous and

>>>>>>>>>>>> completely useless

>>>>>>>>>>>> effects (wobbly windows, blatant overuse of transparency,

>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) and assume

>>>>>>>>>>>> that it must be better than Mac OS X because it's so

>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmetically made-up

>>>>>>>>>>>> and then there are others who only need the Terminal and can

>>>>>>>>>>>> keep typing on

>>>>>>>>>>>> it whole day long."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " The problem with the Linux community is that, like any

>>>>>>>>>>>> community, it has

>>>>>>>>>>>> members with widely varying interests and preferences and

>>>>>>>>>>>> the open source

>>>>>>>>>>>> developers are developing hundreds of distributions to try

>>>>>>>>>>>> and cater to

>>>>>>>>>>>> every single whim and fancy of these members. The result is

>>>>>>>>>>>> a cornucopia of

>>>>>>>>>>>> free software, software that has been developed at the

>>>>>>>>>>>> expense of the hard

>>>>>>>>>>>> work and time of some of the most skilled developers on the

>>>>>>>>>>>> planet, and yet

>>>>>>>>>>>> does not have a single product that is complete in and of

>>>>>>>>>>>> itself and is

>>>>>>>>>>>> generating any profit at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " There is no way whatsoever that thousands of developers

>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting in front

>>>>>>>>>>>> of their computers in different corners of the world and

>>>>>>>>>>>> spending only

>>>>>>>>>>>> their non-working hours trying to develop something that

>>>>>>>>>>>> they know isn't

>>>>>>>>>>>> going to make them any money, are ever going to come up with

>>>>>>>>>>>> anything good

>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to seriously challenge software from companies like

>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft and

>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. There is just no chance at all."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " Linux has been around for more than a decade now and it's

>>>>>>>>>>>> nowhere near

>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging either Mac OS X or Windows. The vast majority of

>>>>>>>>>>>> hardware and

>>>>>>>>>>>> software makers around the world are still shipping products

>>>>>>>>>>>> that are

>>>>>>>>>>>> incompatible with Linux."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " There's no guarantee that the camera you bought today and

>>>>>>>>>>>> is compatible

>>>>>>>>>>>> with your Ubuntu installation will work with Fedora Core too

>>>>>>>>>>>> should you

>>>>>>>>>>>> change your mind in a few days, as is a common practice

>>>>>>>>>>>> among the Linux

>>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> " All of this and more are reasons enough to ignore Linux.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux users are

>>>>>>>>>>>> never quite sure which one is the best distribution around.

>>>>>>>>>>>> They have

>>>>>>>>>>>> debates in their own community with twenty different users

>>>>>>>>>>>> vouching for

>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty different variations. They constantly have to keep

>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out

>>>>>>>>>>>> workarounds to make all their software and hardware work

>>>>>>>>>>>> together. They

>>>>>>>>>>>> can't just go out and buy a new accessory, assured in the

>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that it

>>>>>>>>>>>> will work. They are afraid to upgrade, lest things go wrong."

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> And so forth......

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously this guy has had experience with LinSUX because

>>>>>>>>>>>> his article is

>>>>>>>>>>>> right on the money....

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you so afraid of Linux, Moshe?

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> I don't think he is. All the points made in this article are

>>>>>>>>>> valid.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Linux won't make it into the mainstream as a business desktop

>>>>>>>>>> OS. I'm IT support manager for one of the biggest pharma

>>>>>>>>>> companies in the world. There isn't a hope in hell of us ever

>>>>>>>>>> going to Linux, mainly because of the reasons stated above but

>>>>>>>>>> also we have 40,000 users worldwide. Where would the money

>>>>>>>>>> come to retrain them all? Who is going to pay for my staff's

>>>>>>>>>> time to rebuild all those machines with Linux on them?

>>>>>>>>>> Who's going to pay to retrain all my support staff to use a

>>>>>>>>>> totally new OS? What are our customers going to say when the

>>>>>>>>>> documents we create and send them don't open or format

>>>>>>>>>> correctly on their Windows boxes?

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> It'd be like going back to the late 80s when I started in IT.

>>>>>>>>>> We had 4 different word processing apps at my first company,

>>>>>>>>>> none of which could talk to the other without an add-on and

>>>>>>>>>> lots of pissing about.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it has it's uses, and I

>>>>>>>>>> think if it had the coverage Windows got when Win3 first came

>>>>>>>>>> out, it would probably be doing a lot better on the desktop,

>>>>>>>>>> but it didn't, and it won't. Saying that, I have 3 linux PCs

>>>>>>>>>> at home, and I set my gran up with one running Ubuntu

>>>>>>>>>> recently, so I'm not *against* Linux per se.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Face it. I can go out and buy a named brand PC, with an OS for

>>>>>>>>>> less than ?300 for our office. I can plug it in, and it just

>>>>>>>>>> works when the user logs in. It sees all the servers, the

>>>>>>>>>> drives map. It does it perfectly. OK, it's Windoze, but

>>>>>>>>>> nothing is perfect. ..

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Let's see, 40,000 workstations with Vista and all need to be

>>>>>>>>> trained or 40,000 workstations with Ubuntu and all need to be

>>>>>>>>> trained. What's the difference? Vista is expensive, both for

>>>>>>>>> the software itself and the upgraded hardware, and Ubuntu is

>>>>>>>>> free. If you want your company to stay in the past, don't train

>>>>>>>>> them to use Ubuntu and train them to use Vista and fork out the

>>>>>>>>> money for new hardware.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>>>>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> You are free to believe what you like of course, but that is true.

>>>>>> That's what happens when a WAN is set up securely and sensibly.

>>>>>> Last virus we got hit by was sometime in summer 2002.

>>>>>

>>>>> Sure.

>>>>>

>>>>>>>> We don't need to train most users to use Vista, because XP works

>>>>>>>> very well and is very stable for our needs. Even if we did,

>>>>>>>> Vista isn't expensive for us, has a "familiar" feel to it, and

>>>>>>>> our corporate image would be set as we've set XP up so there

>>>>>>>> wouldn't be a great deal of change.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> We'll only start upgrading once the machines we buy are no

>>>>>>>> longer supplied with XP, even then they have a 3 year life cycle

>>>>>>>> then are replaced, which is standard practice for corporate IT

>>>>>>>> departments. So we won't upgrade until absolutely necessary.

>>>>>>>> It's not "staying in the past", it's good business sense to use

>>>>>>>> something that works reliably, which contrary to Linux users

>>>>>>>> beliefs, Windows does in a corporate environment when set up

>>>>>>>> correctly.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> We have a lot of in house software written for windoze, and

>>>>>>>> other software ( clinical trial software, Drug regulatory

>>>>>>>> software etc ) that only works on Windoze.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Mike P

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Sorry to hear it. What would you do if MS goes out of business?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Riiiight... and Linux is going to do that to MS is it? I think

>>>>>> not. Part of me would like to see it, but it aint going to happen.

>>>>>> Linux won't make it as a serious desktop OS in my lifetime. I'm 36..

>>>>>

>>>>> Ever hear of Enron? TWA? Pan Am? No one thought they would go out

>>>>> of business either. MS treats their paying customers like dirt and

>>>>> constantly accuses them of being thieves and you think that the

>>>>> paying public is stupid enough to let that continue? Linux won't

>>>>> put MS out of business MS will.

>>>>>

>>>> Pan-Am never recovered from Lockerbie, and TWA's dodgy

>>>> maintenance/Boeing's iffy design led to TWA 800 disintegrating

>>>> 14000ft above the Atlantic, from which the the company never recovered.

>>>> Enron? well, they were just all bent weren't they?

>>>>

>>>> Mike P

>>>

>>> So you see my point?

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

>>

>> Sort of, but I doubt mad Libyans are going to blow MS up

>>

>> -)

>>

>> Mike P

>>

>

> No, it will be the blatant disdain that MS holds for their paying

> customers that will do it, not some terrorist attack.

>

> Alias

Yeah, you're an army of one!...LOL!

Frank

Canuck57 wrote:

 

-----------------------------------

 

Damn, you're really good at FUD and voodoo math!...LOL!

Frank

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in

news:4836f672$0$25176$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

> Alias wrote:

>>>>

>>>> And that doesn't include the cost of cleaning off viruses and

>>>> malware from these Windows workstations.

>>>>

>>>

>>> What viruses? We've not had a virus outbreak since 2002...

>>

>> Yeah, riiiiiight.

>

> Is that in your religion? Most of us Windows users haven't seen a

> virus in years. Get over it.

 

Or spyware/malware either I suppose ?

Frank <fb@tpi.olm> wrote in news:483708c3$0$3375$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> Canuck57 wrote:

>

> -----------------------------------

>

> Damn, you're really good at FUD and voodoo math!...LOL!

> Frank

 

VooDoo math ?

 

Anything times zero is.....well.....zero.