Stephan Rose wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:56:35 +0100, Alias wrote:

>

>> Frank wrote:

>>

>>> That is to be determined in court isn't it? You're a canadian beacon,

>>

>> "beacon"? LOL, what a retard!

>>

>>> not an American.

>>

>> Get this man an Atlas. Canada is in America, you doofus.

>

> Actually Alias, Canada is next to the US, not in the US. They are two

> different countries.

>

Yes, both are part of a continent known as North AMERICA. I know, Canada

hasn't been invaded yet by the US Marines. When it is, I'm sure CNN will

have a google map and allow "Americans" to find Canada.

 

Cheers.

 

--

What does Bill Gates use?

http://tinyurl.com/2zxhdl

 

Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.

 

Q: What OS is built for lusers?

A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

 

Frank, hard at work on his Vista computer all day:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/compost.htm

"The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

<none@none.not> wrote in message

news:47cc847d$0$26011$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

>> <none@none.not> wrote in message

>> news:47cc4156$0$26061$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:e%233$WHTfIHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:%23POVrkRfIHA.5296@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>>> Of course not:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Enthusiasts would know what hardware spec they would need for all of

>>>>>> the bells and whistles. The biggest problem facing enthusiast

>>>>>> upgraders is the price of the software..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Also, enthusiasts would not have been buying the lowest spec machines

>>>>>> and expecting them to run all of the bells and whistles. Nobody with

>>>>>> even a modicum of intelligence would.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> To you, MS can do no wrong. From the article:

>>>>>

>>>>> "That suit, which was granted class-action status just over a week

>>>>> ago, claims Microsoft deceived consumers. According to the plaintiffs,

>>>>> Microsoft knew that a large number of computers tagged with the "Vista

>>>>> Capable" sticker would be able to run only Vista Home Basic, the

>>>>> entry-level version that omits some of the operating system's

>>>>> most-heavily touted features, including Aero, the flashy user

>>>>> interface."

>>>>>

>>>>> Alias

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I don't think that MS never does wrong, but I do think that end users,

>>>> not just of Microsoft products incidentally, are part responsible for

>>>> all of it too.

>>>>

>>>> One can't expect a $400 cheapie to do what a $2000 high end does. The

>>>> class action lawsuits, so popular in the US, are the result of end

>>>> users wanting to shift the blame for what they bought and get rich

>>>> quick all at the same time.

>>>>

>>>> Of course, the lawyers love it, don't they. Long protracted cases where

>>>> they do ever so much better than anybody else..

>>>>

>>>> While somebody gets recompense for the crappy cheap computer they

>>>> bought, the lawyers are set up for life.. the Great American Dream

>>>> where the end justifies the means..

>>>>

>>>> 'Stick 'em up and hand over the loot'.. :-)

>>>>

>>>

>>> Where was it ever clearly explained to your average, non-computer

>>> literate consumers what the difference between Vista Capable and Vista

>>> Ready means?

>>>

>>

>> Why, that friendly person in the computer store of course. You remember

>> him? don't you. The one who palmed you off with a printer which barely

>> worked with XP, let alone anything newer. I liked the part where he said

>> "you don't need a fast printer. The speed makes no difference at all"

>> while standing in front of a 200 unit pyramid of the darned things marked

>> 'Manager's Special'. :-)

>>

>

> LOL!

>

> But seriously, you mean those computer stores like Walmart and Best Buy?

> I'm sure that the specially trained associates in those stores have always

> clearly explained the difference between vista capable and vista ready.

>

> The question was actually a serious question. Your average

> computer-illiterate person will go to a Best Buy because they DO think of

> it as a computer store, as a place that is an authority on selling

> computers. They will see a label that says "Vista..." on a computer

> (whether it says capable or ready) and assume, "oh, it has a Vista label

> on it, it should run vista just fine. Besides, it comes preloaded with

> Vista...". This kind of consumer will consider themselves an educated

> shopper (when really they still have no clue). Do you disagree?

>

>

> --

> "Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on free

> speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

> creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

> rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

> - Maura Corbett

>

> --

> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

>

 

 

Specially trained associate? Such a grand title for somebody who has to wear

a 'name and department' badge such that they don't forget who they are or in

which part of the store they should be patrolling. Drop a few monkey nuts on

the floor in front of 'business software' and watch the two dunces in charge

of office seating and filing cabinets scamper over for the feeding frenzy.

 

I parked up outside of a computer store one time, just as a couple of

'associates' were leaving for lunch break. I took my dog into the store, and

was told that dogs were not allowed, so I explained that I had brought the

dog in for two reasons. #1, she needed an ego boost.. #2 I brought her in to

raise the IQ of the store back up to where it had been before the two staff

members walked out.

 

Four words for you.. I love computer stores. These associates are trained

well enough to recognize a sap. They start by telling the sap that AMD cpu's

are faster than Intel's because there is less lettering to weigh them down,

and if the sap looks impressed, they know that they have gotten a 'live

one'.

 

Some people set themselves up for a fall. Ask somebody why they bought the

$400 beige cheapy, and they will tell you that it was a great deal because

the black one was twice as much and they both had the same sticker on the

front.

 

I think that computers should have always been color coded, as in case

color, dependent upon performance. If there had been the computer world

equivalent of white lettering on tires, Average Joe would be able to tell

which computer was better. The way things are, he gets confused easily

because black, silver and beige computers are all different prices. There is

no real structure so, apart from color, a computer is a computer is a

computer, some for rich people and some for poorer people.

 

The wording on the shelf barker doesn't give much away either, to Average

Joe or the associate. P4 1.8, 512, 120mb, ATI tuner out in sideways, DVD RW

+R -R/CD-RW, WLan means nothing to many people. It's a computer, isn't it?

Average Joe thinks that he had better not ask otherwise the associate will

try to sell him any crap, not realizing that he has already been tagged.

 

I am continually surprised at how many of my clients are blissfully unaware

of what they have purchased. Other than the fact that it is a Dell, HP or

Compaq computer, they really don't know. You would think that a person

looking to part company with anything above $300 would want to know exactly

what they were getting, and this is where I think that it is the consumers

responsibility to do some research, if only to protect their wallets..

 

It's like the guy who walked into a Chrysler dealership and bought a Jeep.

After paying the money, he headed off downtown, and drove it straight

through the doors of the courthouse. When asked by court security why he did

that, he pointed to the back of the vehicle and said "if you look there, it

says that it is 'Trial Ready'.. "

 

--

Mike Hall - MVP

How to construct a good post..

http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm

How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc

Mike's Window - My Blog..

http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx

NoStop wrote:

 

 

....hehehe...too bad you and your butt-buddy alias can't join in on the

lawsuit.

Bummer's huh...LOL!

Frank

"Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

news:%23POVrkRfIHA.5296@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> Of course not:

>

> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>

> Alias

 

 

Ah... more trolling. What a surprise. Not...

 

Lang

Frank wrote:

> NoStop wrote:

>

>

> ...hehehe...too bad you and your butt-buddy alias can't join in on the

> lawsuit.

> Bummer's huh...LOL!

> Frank

 

No tears here Francis. The EU just recently fined MickeyMouse $1.3 billion.

That'll do me for awhile. :-) Some of that money came from YOU and that

makes it even sweeter. Must really piss you off. After all those hours

working the deep fryer to be able to purchase Vista, the damn EU scoops up

that money. Too funny!

 

Cheers.

 

--

What does Bill Gates use?

http://tinyurl.com/2zxhdl

 

Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.

 

Q: What OS is built for lusers?

A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

 

Frank, hard at work on his Vista computer all day:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/compost.htm

NoStop wrote:

>

> No tears here Francis. The EU just recently fined MickeyMouse $1.3 billion.

> That'll do me for awhile. :-)

 

When did canada become part of the eu?...LOL!

 

Some of that money came from YOU and that

> makes it even sweeter.

 

But [sic] did you, RS and your butt-buddy alias get any of it...hahaha!

 

Must really piss you off.

 

I couldn't possible care less.

 

After all those hours

> working the deep fryer to be able to purchase Vista, the damn EU scoops up

> that money.

 

Sh*t, you must be really pissed...hahaha!

 

Too funny!

 

Yeah, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at you as*holes...LOL!

Frank

Frank wrote:

> NoStop wrote:

>

>>

>> No tears here Francis. The EU just recently fined MickeyMouse $1.3

>> billion. That'll do me for awhile. :-)

>

> When did canada become part of the eu?...LOL!

>

> Some of that money came from YOU and that

>> makes it even sweeter.

>

> But [sic] did you, RS and your butt-buddy alias get any of it...hahaha!

>

> Must really piss you off.

>

> I couldn't possible care less.

>

> After all those hours

>> working the deep fryer to be able to purchase Vista, the damn EU scoops

>> up that money.

>

> Sh*t, you must be really pissed...hahaha!

>

> Too funny!

>

> Yeah, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at you as*holes...LOL!

> Frank

 

Hope you were wearing your football helmet Francis. We don't want to see any

further brain injuries over there.

 

Cheers and LOL!

 

--

What does Bill Gates use?

http://tinyurl.com/2zxhdl

 

Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.

 

Q: What OS is built for lusers?

A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

 

Frank, hard at work on his Vista computer all day:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/compost.htm

Frank wrote:

> The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'

> wrote:

>

>> Where was it ever clearly explained to your average, non-computer

>> literate consumers what the difference between Vista Capable and Vista

>> Ready means?

>>

>

> I believe that MS had a training video for all stores and their

> employees who would be selling computers with Vista already installed.

> The store employees were supposed to be educated in the difference as to

> what the different "stickers' on the computers meant. MS did make the

> effort to get it out to all those involved in the sale of Vista loaded

> computers. Obviously, some stores didn't have a very good follow thru on

> the difference.

> It's a tricky situation where the blame will be placed and will only be

> sorted out by the courts...well maybe sorted out.

> Frank

 

Hi Frank and thanks for the reply. Sounds right to me about the stores,

but it also seems like MS could really have done more to help give

consumers a clue.

 

--

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

- Maura Corbett

 

--

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

> <none@none.not> wrote in message

> news:47cc847d$0$26011$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message

>>> news:47cc4156$0$26061$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:e%233$WHTfIHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:%23POVrkRfIHA.5296@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>>>> Of course not:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Enthusiasts would know what hardware spec they would need for all

>>>>>>> of the bells and whistles. The biggest problem facing enthusiast

>>>>>>> upgraders is the price of the software..

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Also, enthusiasts would not have been buying the lowest spec

>>>>>>> machines and expecting them to run all of the bells and whistles.

>>>>>>> Nobody with even a modicum of intelligence would.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> To you, MS can do no wrong. From the article:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "That suit, which was granted class-action status just over a week

>>>>>> ago, claims Microsoft deceived consumers. According to the

>>>>>> plaintiffs, Microsoft knew that a large number of computers tagged

>>>>>> with the "Vista Capable" sticker would be able to run only Vista

>>>>>> Home Basic, the entry-level version that omits some of the

>>>>>> operating system's most-heavily touted features, including Aero,

>>>>>> the flashy user interface."

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I don't think that MS never does wrong, but I do think that end

>>>>> users, not just of Microsoft products incidentally, are part

>>>>> responsible for all of it too.

>>>>>

>>>>> One can't expect a $400 cheapie to do what a $2000 high end does.

>>>>> The class action lawsuits, so popular in the US, are the result of

>>>>> end users wanting to shift the blame for what they bought and get

>>>>> rich quick all at the same time.

>>>>>

>>>>> Of course, the lawyers love it, don't they. Long protracted cases

>>>>> where they do ever so much better than anybody else..

>>>>>

>>>>> While somebody gets recompense for the crappy cheap computer they

>>>>> bought, the lawyers are set up for life.. the Great American Dream

>>>>> where the end justifies the means..

>>>>>

>>>>> 'Stick 'em up and hand over the loot'.. :-)

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Where was it ever clearly explained to your average, non-computer

>>>> literate consumers what the difference between Vista Capable and

>>>> Vista Ready means?

>>>>

>>>

>>> Why, that friendly person in the computer store of course. You

>>> remember him? don't you. The one who palmed you off with a printer

>>> which barely worked with XP, let alone anything newer. I liked the

>>> part where he said "you don't need a fast printer. The speed makes no

>>> difference at all" while standing in front of a 200 unit pyramid of

>>> the darned things marked 'Manager's Special'. :-)

>>>

>>

>> LOL!

>>

>> But seriously, you mean those computer stores like Walmart and Best

>> Buy? I'm sure that the specially trained associates in those stores

>> have always clearly explained the difference between vista capable and

>> vista ready.

>>

>> The question was actually a serious question. Your average

>> computer-illiterate person will go to a Best Buy because they DO think

>> of it as a computer store, as a place that is an authority on selling

>> computers. They will see a label that says "Vista..." on a computer

>> (whether it says capable or ready) and assume, "oh, it has a Vista

>> label on it, it should run vista just fine. Besides, it comes

>> preloaded with Vista...". This kind of consumer will consider

>> themselves an educated shopper (when really they still have no clue).

>> Do you disagree?

>>

>

> Specially trained associate? Such a grand title for somebody who has to

> wear a 'name and department' badge such that they don't forget who they

> are or in which part of the store they should be patrolling. Drop a few

> monkey nuts on the floor in front of 'business software' and watch the

> two dunces in charge of office seating and filing cabinets scamper over

> for the feeding frenzy.

 

Absolutely correct, it was sarcasm, spoken in jest. :)

>

> I parked up outside of a computer store one time, just as a couple of

> 'associates' were leaving for lunch break. I took my dog into the store,

> and was told that dogs were not allowed, so I explained that I had

> brought the dog in for two reasons. #1, she needed an ego boost.. #2 I

> brought her in to raise the IQ of the store back up to where it had been

> before the two staff members walked out.

>

> Four words for you.. I love computer stores. These associates are

> trained well enough to recognize a sap. They start by telling the sap

> that AMD cpu's are faster than Intel's because there is less lettering

> to weigh them down, and if the sap looks impressed, they know that they

> have gotten a 'live one'.

>

> Some people set themselves up for a fall. Ask somebody why they bought

> the $400 beige cheapy, and they will tell you that it was a great deal

> because the black one was twice as much and they both had the same

> sticker on the front.

>

> I think that computers should have always been color coded, as in case

> color, dependent upon performance. If there had been the computer world

> equivalent of white lettering on tires, Average Joe would be able to

> tell which computer was better. The way things are, he gets confused

> easily because black, silver and beige computers are all different

> prices. There is no real structure so, apart from color, a computer is a

> computer is a computer, some for rich people and some for poorer people.

>

> The wording on the shelf barker doesn't give much away either, to

> Average Joe or the associate. P4 1.8, 512, 120mb, ATI tuner out in

> sideways, DVD RW +R -R/CD-RW, WLan means nothing to many people. It's a

> computer, isn't it? Average Joe thinks that he had better not ask

> otherwise the associate will try to sell him any crap, not realizing

> that he has already been tagged.

>

> I am continually surprised at how many of my clients are blissfully

> unaware of what they have purchased. Other than the fact that it is a

> Dell, HP or Compaq computer, they really don't know. You would think

> that a person looking to part company with anything above $300 would

> want to know exactly what they were getting, and this is where I think

> that it is the consumers responsibility to do some research, if only to

> protect their wallets..

>

> It's like the guy who walked into a Chrysler dealership and bought a

> Jeep. After paying the money, he headed off downtown, and drove it

> straight through the doors of the courthouse. When asked by court

> security why he did that, he pointed to the back of the vehicle and said

> "if you look there, it says that it is 'Trial Ready'.. "

>

 

And at this point, when the average consumer considers themself an

educated consumer but really can't tell their arse from a hole in the

ground when it comes to shopping for computers, do you not think that

some responsibility gets shifted to the manufacturer/retailer (keep in

mind we agree most retailers are uneducated about this stuff, even if MS

sent out a video like Frank said)? I think MS should have started an

awareness campaign or something. It's bad enough they caved to Intel's

demands in the first place.

 

--

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

- Maura Corbett

 

--

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'

wrote:

> Frank wrote:

>

>> The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Where was it ever clearly explained to your average, non-computer

>>> literate consumers what the difference between Vista Capable and

>>> Vista Ready means?

>>>

>>

>> I believe that MS had a training video for all stores and their

>> employees who would be selling computers with Vista already installed.

>> The store employees were supposed to be educated in the difference as

>> to what the different "stickers' on the computers meant. MS did make

>> the effort to get it out to all those involved in the sale of Vista

>> loaded computers. Obviously, some stores didn't have a very good

>> follow thru on the difference.

>> It's a tricky situation where the blame will be placed and will only

>> be sorted out by the courts...well maybe sorted out.

>> Frank

>

>

> Hi Frank and thanks for the reply. Sounds right to me about the stores,

> but it also seems like MS could really have done more to help give

> consumers a clue.

>

 

Anyone would have to agree with that statement after talking with some

of those "salespersons", or 'associates' or whatever title they're

currently using.

I'm all for MS having only two versions of Vista...Business and

Ultimate. That would take away the confusion and force hardware to be up

to snuff.

I seriously doubt that will ever happen. One reason is shelf space. The

more any company can get, the better...LOL!

Frank

"The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

<none@none.not> wrote in message

news:47cd8c34$0$26040$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

>> <none@none.not> wrote in message

>> news:47cc847d$0$26011$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message

>>>> news:47cc4156$0$26061$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:e%233$WHTfIHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@removethisgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>> news:%23POVrkRfIHA.5296@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>>>>> Of course not:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Enthusiasts would know what hardware spec they would need for all

>>>>>>>> of the bells and whistles. The biggest problem facing enthusiast

>>>>>>>> upgraders is the price of the software..

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Also, enthusiasts would not have been buying the lowest spec

>>>>>>>> machines and expecting them to run all of the bells and whistles.

>>>>>>>> Nobody with even a modicum of intelligence would.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> To you, MS can do no wrong. From the article:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "That suit, which was granted class-action status just over a week

>>>>>>> ago, claims Microsoft deceived consumers. According to the

>>>>>>> plaintiffs, Microsoft knew that a large number of computers tagged

>>>>>>> with the "Vista Capable" sticker would be able to run only Vista

>>>>>>> Home Basic, the entry-level version that omits some of the operating

>>>>>>> system's most-heavily touted features, including Aero, the flashy

>>>>>>> user interface."

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I don't think that MS never does wrong, but I do think that end

>>>>>> users, not just of Microsoft products incidentally, are part

>>>>>> responsible for all of it too.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> One can't expect a $400 cheapie to do what a $2000 high end does. The

>>>>>> class action lawsuits, so popular in the US, are the result of end

>>>>>> users wanting to shift the blame for what they bought and get rich

>>>>>> quick all at the same time.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Of course, the lawyers love it, don't they. Long protracted cases

>>>>>> where they do ever so much better than anybody else..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> While somebody gets recompense for the crappy cheap computer they

>>>>>> bought, the lawyers are set up for life.. the Great American Dream

>>>>>> where the end justifies the means..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> 'Stick 'em up and hand over the loot'.. :-)

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Where was it ever clearly explained to your average, non-computer

>>>>> literate consumers what the difference between Vista Capable and Vista

>>>>> Ready means?

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Why, that friendly person in the computer store of course. You remember

>>>> him? don't you. The one who palmed you off with a printer which barely

>>>> worked with XP, let alone anything newer. I liked the part where he

>>>> said "you don't need a fast printer. The speed makes no difference at

>>>> all" while standing in front of a 200 unit pyramid of the darned things

>>>> marked 'Manager's Special'. :-)

>>>>

>>>

>>> LOL!

>>>

>>> But seriously, you mean those computer stores like Walmart and Best Buy?

>>> I'm sure that the specially trained associates in those stores have

>>> always clearly explained the difference between vista capable and vista

>>> ready.

>>>

>>> The question was actually a serious question. Your average

>>> computer-illiterate person will go to a Best Buy because they DO think

>>> of it as a computer store, as a place that is an authority on selling

>>> computers. They will see a label that says "Vista..." on a computer

>>> (whether it says capable or ready) and assume, "oh, it has a Vista label

>>> on it, it should run vista just fine. Besides, it comes preloaded with

>>> Vista...". This kind of consumer will consider themselves an educated

>>> shopper (when really they still have no clue). Do you disagree?

>>>

>>

>> Specially trained associate? Such a grand title for somebody who has to

>> wear a 'name and department' badge such that they don't forget who they

>> are or in which part of the store they should be patrolling. Drop a few

>> monkey nuts on the floor in front of 'business software' and watch the

>> two dunces in charge of office seating and filing cabinets scamper over

>> for the feeding frenzy.

>

> Absolutely correct, it was sarcasm, spoken in jest. :)

>

>>

>> I parked up outside of a computer store one time, just as a couple of

>> 'associates' were leaving for lunch break. I took my dog into the store,

>> and was told that dogs were not allowed, so I explained that I had

>> brought the dog in for two reasons. #1, she needed an ego boost.. #2 I

>> brought her in to raise the IQ of the store back up to where it had been

>> before the two staff members walked out.

>>

>> Four words for you.. I love computer stores. These associates are trained

>> well enough to recognize a sap. They start by telling the sap that AMD

>> cpu's are faster than Intel's because there is less lettering to weigh

>> them down, and if the sap looks impressed, they know that they have

>> gotten a 'live one'.

>>

>> Some people set themselves up for a fall. Ask somebody why they bought

>> the $400 beige cheapy, and they will tell you that it was a great deal

>> because the black one was twice as much and they both had the same

>> sticker on the front.

>>

>> I think that computers should have always been color coded, as in case

>> color, dependent upon performance. If there had been the computer world

>> equivalent of white lettering on tires, Average Joe would be able to tell

>> which computer was better. The way things are, he gets confused easily

>> because black, silver and beige computers are all different prices. There

>> is no real structure so, apart from color, a computer is a computer is a

>> computer, some for rich people and some for poorer people.

>>

>> The wording on the shelf barker doesn't give much away either, to Average

>> Joe or the associate. P4 1.8, 512, 120mb, ATI tuner out in sideways, DVD

>> RW +R -R/CD-RW, WLan means nothing to many people. It's a computer, isn't

>> it? Average Joe thinks that he had better not ask otherwise the associate

>> will try to sell him any crap, not realizing that he has already been

>> tagged.

>>

>> I am continually surprised at how many of my clients are blissfully

>> unaware of what they have purchased. Other than the fact that it is a

>> Dell, HP or Compaq computer, they really don't know. You would think that

>> a person looking to part company with anything above $300 would want to

>> know exactly what they were getting, and this is where I think that it is

>> the consumers responsibility to do some research, if only to protect

>> their wallets..

>>

>> It's like the guy who walked into a Chrysler dealership and bought a

>> Jeep. After paying the money, he headed off downtown, and drove it

>> straight through the doors of the courthouse. When asked by court

>> security why he did that, he pointed to the back of the vehicle and said

>> "if you look there, it says that it is 'Trial Ready'.. "

>>

>

> And at this point, when the average consumer considers themself an

> educated consumer but really can't tell their arse from a hole in the

> ground when it comes to shopping for computers, do you not think that some

> responsibility gets shifted to the manufacturer/retailer (keep in mind we

> agree most retailers are uneducated about this stuff, even if MS sent out

> a video like Frank said)? I think MS should have started an awareness

> campaign or something. It's bad enough they caved to Intel's demands in

> the first place.

>

> --

> "Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on free

> speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

> creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

> rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

> - Maura Corbett

>

> --

> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

>

 

 

Targets, targets, targets..

 

If you don't meet the targets

You are out of the door.

Tell them anything

If it puts cash in the drawer.

 

Buyer Beware.. it must be an old saying because there is the Latin version

'Caveat Emptor', and the Romans had all but fizzled out by 200 AD :-)

 

 

Mike Hall - MVP

How to construct a good post..

http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm

How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc

Mike's Window - My Blog..

http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx

Alias wrote:

> Of course not:

>

> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>

>

> Alias

 

No, I don't think they do.

 

http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/vistalabels.html

 

Windows Vista Premium Ready and Vista Capable label fiasco

 

 

I have been investigating the Windows Vista labels, and I've posted my

findings here for those who are also interested in learning more about

it. How confusing is it really, and what if any blame does Microsoft

have responsibility for with this situation?

 

So I have been looking at labels on new computers to see what the labels

actually look like. Here are some pictures:

 

So, if you read about the class action lawsuit details and know what

it's about:

Windows Vista (In)capable

 

Then you know that the whole issue is that computers with the "Windows

Vista Capable" label can run Vista, except for the visual effects like

flip 3d and aero. The "Windows Vista" premium ready computers can run it

all. The consumers don't understand the difference, and feel gypped

since some of them bought a Vista capable computer and expected it to

run all Vista features.

 

So, is this whole issue really so confusing? Well, lots of consumers

seem to feel that way. What else about this is confusing? Well, IMO, the

fact that the "Windows Vista" labels are really the Windows Vista

Premium Ready, then why don't they say plainly "Windows Vista Premium

Ready"? Also, notice the "Windows Vista Basic" label pictured above?

Where does that fit into all of these labels and classifications that

Microsoft has put on Vista computers? What specifically do those labels

mean to consumers? Normally, I would expect that they mean exactly what

they say, that the computers with this label will run Windows Vista

Basic well, and may not run all features of other flavors of Vista, but

honestly, you can't understand what each label means and what any given

computer will handle based on the labels alone because the labels don't

explicitly state the facts and details about any given machine they

appear on. So, no, you can't feel safe taking any of these labels at

face value without any other knowledge.

 

The way I see it, there are 2 main things that Microsoft has the

responsibility for, caving in to Intel's demands in the first place with

the Vista Capable label for Intel's crappy graphics chipsets, and once

committing to that poor decision, failing to make a reasonable effort of

awareness about the difference between the various labels and what they

mean to resellers, retailers, and consumers. Microsoft alone is not to

blame for this problem, Intel certainly started it all. But Microsoft

needs to get back to treating customers like customers again. Customers

may not always be right, but the customer is the customer, and it

matters how they feel and how they perceive things because ultimately

they pay the bills.

 

--

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

- Maura Corbett

 

--

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the money comes

from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is taking away certain

conveniences from customers on the assumption that Microsoft knows better

what we want to do than we do. For example, in windows XP, when printing a

sheet of 35 pictures, if you put a lengthy label under a picture, then print,

the label would would be printed under the picture in two lines. With VISTA,

even though the picture shows the two-line label, when printed, it defaults

to a single, stretched out line, which is truncated and becomes useless. The

obvious work-around is to take my file to a friend that is running XP and

print it using the old, reliable photo printing wizzard. I wonder if there

is a fix in VISTA for this inconvenience.

 

--

Join the effort to raise awareness of Multiple Sclerosis - an often

devistating disease with no known cause and (as yet) no cure. Support the

annual MS Walk

 

 

"Alias" wrote:

> Of course not:

>

> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>

> Alias

>

M$ hasn't give a rats ass about consumers for years, since their near

monopoly began to grow large enough that customer well being could be safely

ignored. Around the release of 3.0 I believe, numerous Windows apps began

crashing with "Unrecoverable Application Error's", or UAE's as we called

them. These were the equivalent of the "Not Responding" alerts we've come

to know and love.

 

M$ quickly issued an upgrade that did away with the UAE's for the most

part, since in those days DOS and DOS based programs were still widely used,

and the Windows stranglehold did not yet exist. That was also in the long

gone days of calling M$ for assistance without providing a CC#, and new

versions running most old programs with no problem.

 

As Windows became more complicated and evolved from a DOS shell into an OS

in it's own right, the willingness of M$ to assist it's customers decreased.

Their indifference, if not outright for contempt, for their has increased at

the same time until we've arrived at the present situation where the M$

attitude is now that the OS is flawless because it's from M$, and any

difficulty MUST be due to user incompetence. This attitude is widely

reflected within this NG, as evidenced by the fact that any request for

assistance, while usually answered eventually, also results in abuse from

other users who assume that if you'having a problem, you must be a PC

illiterate idiot.

 

I'd love to see some of these self-proclaimed "experts" try to use a DOS

program as simple as Word Perfect, Lotus, or dBase.

 

Buddha

 

"DaddyMouse" <DaddyMouse@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:69654F89-7E57-437F-9962-58A693E642A5@microsoft.com...

> Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the money

> comes

> from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is taking away certain

> conveniences from customers on the assumption that Microsoft knows better

> what we want to do than we do. For example, in windows XP, when

> printing a

> sheet of 35 pictures, if you put a lengthy label under a picture, then

> print,

> the label would would be printed under the picture in two lines. With

> VISTA,

> even though the picture shows the two-line label, when printed, it

> defaults

> to a single, stretched out line, which is truncated and becomes useless.

> The

> obvious work-around is to take my file to a friend that is running XP and

> print it using the old, reliable photo printing wizzard. I wonder if

> there

> is a fix in VISTA for this inconvenience.

>

> --

> Join the effort to raise awareness of Multiple Sclerosis - an often

> devistating disease with no known cause and (as yet) no cure. Support the

> annual MS Walk

>

>

> "Alias" wrote:

>

>> Of course not:

>>

>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9066099&intsrc=hm_list

>>

>> Alias

>>

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 01:34:03 -0700, "Buddha" <TEPonta@SBCGlobal.net>

wrote:

>M$ hasn't give a rats ass about consumers for years, since their near

>monopoly began to grow large enough that customer well being could be safely

>ignored. Around the release of 3.0 I believe, numerous Windows apps began

>crashing with "Unrecoverable Application Error's", or UAE's as we called

>them. These were the equivalent of the "Not Responding" alerts we've come

>to know and love.

>

> M$ quickly issued an upgrade that did away with the UAE's for the most

>part, since in those days DOS and DOS based programs were still widely used,

>and the Windows stranglehold did not yet exist. That was also in the long

>gone days of calling M$ for assistance without providing a CC#, and new

>versions running most old programs with no problem.

>

>As Windows became more complicated and evolved from a DOS shell into an OS

>in it's own right, the willingness of M$ to assist it's customers decreased.

>Their indifference, if not outright for contempt, for their has increased at

>the same time until we've arrived at the present situation where the M$

>attitude is now that the OS is flawless because it's from M$, and any

>difficulty MUST be due to user incompetence. This attitude is widely

>reflected within this NG, as evidenced by the fact that any request for

>assistance, while usually answered eventually, also results in abuse from

>other users who assume that if you'having a problem, you must be a PC

>illiterate idiot.

>

>I'd love to see some of these self-proclaimed "experts" try to use a DOS

>program as simple as Word Perfect, Lotus, or dBase.

>

>Buddha

 

No kidding. In the pre-Windows era, you actually needed to know

something besides dragging a mouse around and clicking. A lesson a lot

of Microsoft's own programmers haven't seemed to master.

 

In addition to the old school application you mentioned, (I loved

Lotus) I was rather fond of Symantec's, then revolutionary program

called Q&A, a combination flat-file database and word processing

program often cited as a significant step forward towards making

computers less intimidating and more user friendly. I bet this group's

"experts" couldn't even run it, let alone set up a complex database

with it.

DaddyMouse wrote:

> Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the

> money comes from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is

> taking away certain conveniences from customers on the assumption

> that Microsoft knows better what we want to do than we do.

 

MS does silly, pointless, petty things. My latest gripe with Vista -

right-click "Preview" on an animated gif file shows a static, not animated

graphic. I create many animated gifs and in XP rigt-click "Preview" to

quickly check them. In Vista I have to invoke Irfanview. Nuts !!!!

 

Bloody crazy MS wombats !!!!

 

Paddy

Wombats rule.

 

Yeah, open those with IE. The Photo Gallery had limited support in this

arena as they had other things to concentrate on in this iteration, sorry.

 

--

Speaking for myself only.

See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

--

"Paddy" . wrote in message

news:eh19lgcxIHA.6096@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> DaddyMouse wrote:

>> Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the

>> money comes from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is

>> taking away certain conveniences from customers on the assumption

>> that Microsoft knows better what we want to do than we do.

>

> MS does silly, pointless, petty things. My latest gripe with Vista -

> right-click "Preview" on an animated gif file shows a static, not animated

> graphic. I create many animated gifs and in XP rigt-click "Preview" to

> quickly check them. In Vista I have to invoke Irfanview. Nuts !!!!

>

> Bloody crazy MS wombats !!!!

>

> Paddy

>

>

>

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:51:23 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"

<zachd@nomailplz.online.microsoft.com> wrote:

>

>Wombats rule.

>

>Yeah, open those with IE. The Photo Gallery had limited support in this

>arena as they had other things to concentrate on in this iteration, sorry.

 

Microsoft software engineers concentrate? On what, how to make the

next version of Windows bigger, slower, more buggy? Damn they did it!

"Buddha" <TEPonta@SBCGlobal.net> wrote in message

news:C777F12A-01BD-4E75-82C9-3629E8456B8F@microsoft.com...

> M$ hasn't give a rats ass about consumers for years

 

I had an interesting experience yesterday where we had an unbelievable "M$"

turn-out for a customer feedback forum. You might not be getting personal

attention, which is hard at the 40,000:1,000,000,000 scale that Microsoft

generally operates at, but -- that's probably a misleading comment.

> That was also in the long gone days of calling M$ for assistance without

> providing a CC#

 

I have a standing offer that I'll dig up some old "easy access"

communication channels for anybody with a really good NDA who's on campus.

You see the signal to noise ratio *here*: it gets unbelievable elsewhere.

The Windows Media 'free access' version pretty regularly got Christmas

lists, favorite music information, and just planet-loads of noise. Now

imagine triaging issues across the entire Windows sphere... that's an

interesting challenge.

One key data point is the user often perceives the machine itself as all

being "Windows", so that "M$" # gets deluged with some significant chunks of

issues that aren't Microsoft-sourced. This gets into the importance of

improving the health of the ecosystem, blah blah blah.

 

Scale explains a lot of things, generally.

> and new versions running most old programs with no problem.

 

We've kind of generally moved beyond the point where you can have one

appcompat database accounting for the mistakes of a million programmers -

and isn't that what people then argue is bloat? Vista is an interesting

kick in the pants in this arena via UAC and memory handling - two

interesting ways of encouraging an end to the bad behavior that was

accidentally allowed via a little too much appcompat hand-holding.

> As Windows became more complicated and evolved from a DOS shell into an OS

> in it's own right, the willingness of M$ to assist it's customers

> decreased.

 

That would generally be a statement of opinion about some fanciful notion of

a monolithic corporate entity that doesn't relate to what I generally

experience.

 

Generally there are tools to analyze this kind of thing, and your comments

are seemingly counter-factual. I'd be interested in external analysis that

led to that conclusion, though, but suspect that's merely rhetoric on your

part. That's OK: I was once vehemently anti-MS myself and can understand

where you're coming from, but -- Microsoft is a big company that does a lot

more than most people bear in mind.

> Their indifference, if not outright for contempt, for their has increased

> at

> the same time until we've arrived at the present situation where the M$

> attitude is now that the OS is flawless because it's from M$, and any

> difficulty MUST be due to user incompetence.

 

That would be an unsupported rotten viewpoint that would be a great way to

get canned or held back from promotions. It fails on both the design front

(why is the user failing in this fashion and what can be done to avoid that)

and the critical thinking front ("user incompetence" by itself would be

hard-pressed to cause issues - what's the actual problem and source on

hand?).

 

I can't imagine anybody with that mentality making it through the second

interview of the day. You might be able to find a bad apple here or there

(no pun intended), but that's again why there are checks and balances across

the company.

> This attitude is widely

> reflected within this NG, as evidenced by the fact that any request for

> assistance, while usually answered eventually, also results in abuse from

> other users who assume that if you'having a problem, you must be a PC

> illiterate idiot.

 

I think you and I are both all too aware of the many trolls of both

(supposedly) pro and anti MS flavor who love to hang out here and insult

each other. I don't consider the anti's a meaningful sampling of U*IX

zealots, nor would I consider the pro's a meaningful sampling of Microsoft

zealots. This newsgroup signifies "the MS attitude" about as much as I am

Marie of Romania.

 

 

Customer connection is a very difficult task at the intense scales Microsoft

operates at, but everything I see says that Microsoft is viewing customer

feedback as more valuable over time. Your personal feedback might not be

solicited (again, scale), but for the relevant audiences and markets the

right teams continue to work on how to solicit and incorporate that critical

feedback.

 

If you're interested in actually improving Microsoft, that should likely

become easier over time.

If you're simply interested in making fun of Microsoft, hopefully that

becomes harder over time.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck in your own computing experiences.

 

Cheers,

-Zach

--

Speaking for myself only.

See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

I've been using M$ products and Windows since the initial release years ago.

My comments are based on personal observations over the years, as well as

the experiences of friends and coworkers.

 

It wasn't always the way it is now. I remember calling M$ with a problem I

had back in '90 or so when I worked in the Middle East, and their customer

service rep was outstanding. The assistance was also gratis.

 

I don't doubt charging for every question cuts down on the volume of help

requests as you say it does. I'm sure if they raised the rates to $5000 per

minute or more, they could eliminate calls entirely. An interesting

approach to customer relations.

 

The sheer volume of complaints you describe yourself should tell M$

something about the reliability of their latest release.

 

Buddha

 

"zachd [MSFT]" <zachd@nomailplz.online.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:utXDCuexIHA.4652@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>

> "Buddha" <TEPonta@SBCGlobal.net> wrote in message

> news:C777F12A-01BD-4E75-82C9-3629E8456B8F@microsoft.com...

>> M$ hasn't give a rats ass about consumers for years

>

> I had an interesting experience yesterday where we had an unbelievable

> "M$" turn-out for a customer feedback forum. You might not be getting

> personal attention, which is hard at the 40,000:1,000,000,000 scale that

> Microsoft generally operates at, but -- that's probably a misleading

> comment.

>

>> That was also in the long gone days of calling M$ for assistance without

>> providing a CC#

>

> I have a standing offer that I'll dig up some old "easy access"

> communication channels for anybody with a really good NDA who's on campus.

> You see the signal to noise ratio *here*: it gets unbelievable elsewhere.

> The Windows Media 'free access' version pretty regularly got Christmas

> lists, favorite music information, and just planet-loads of noise. Now

> imagine triaging issues across the entire Windows sphere... that's an

> interesting challenge.

> One key data point is the user often perceives the machine itself as all

> being "Windows", so that "M$" # gets deluged with some significant chunks

> of issues that aren't Microsoft-sourced. This gets into the importance of

> improving the health of the ecosystem, blah blah blah.

>

> Scale explains a lot of things, generally.

>

>> and new versions running most old programs with no problem.

>

> We've kind of generally moved beyond the point where you can have one

> appcompat database accounting for the mistakes of a million programmers -

> and isn't that what people then argue is bloat? Vista is an interesting

> kick in the pants in this arena via UAC and memory handling - two

> interesting ways of encouraging an end to the bad behavior that was

> accidentally allowed via a little too much appcompat hand-holding.

>

>> As Windows became more complicated and evolved from a DOS shell into an

>> OS

>> in it's own right, the willingness of M$ to assist it's customers

>> decreased.

>

> That would generally be a statement of opinion about some fanciful notion

> of a monolithic corporate entity that doesn't relate to what I generally

> experience.

>

> Generally there are tools to analyze this kind of thing, and your comments

> are seemingly counter-factual. I'd be interested in external analysis

> that led to that conclusion, though, but suspect that's merely rhetoric on

> your part. That's OK: I was once vehemently anti-MS myself and can

> understand where you're coming from, but -- Microsoft is a big company

> that does a lot more than most people bear in mind.

>

>> Their indifference, if not outright for contempt, for their has increased

>> at

>> the same time until we've arrived at the present situation where the M$

>> attitude is now that the OS is flawless because it's from M$, and any

>> difficulty MUST be due to user incompetence.

>

> That would be an unsupported rotten viewpoint that would be a great way to

> get canned or held back from promotions. It fails on both the design

> front (why is the user failing in this fashion and what can be done to

> avoid that) and the critical thinking front ("user incompetence" by itself

> would be hard-pressed to cause issues - what's the actual problem and

> source on hand?).

>

> I can't imagine anybody with that mentality making it through the second

> interview of the day. You might be able to find a bad apple here or there

> (no pun intended), but that's again why there are checks and balances

> across the company.

>

>> This attitude is widely

>> reflected within this NG, as evidenced by the fact that any request for

>> assistance, while usually answered eventually, also results in abuse from

>> other users who assume that if you'having a problem, you must be a PC

>> illiterate idiot.

>

> I think you and I are both all too aware of the many trolls of both

> (supposedly) pro and anti MS flavor who love to hang out here and insult

> each other. I don't consider the anti's a meaningful sampling of U*IX

> zealots, nor would I consider the pro's a meaningful sampling of Microsoft

> zealots. This newsgroup signifies "the MS attitude" about as much as I am

> Marie of Romania.

>

>

> Customer connection is a very difficult task at the intense scales

> Microsoft operates at, but everything I see says that Microsoft is viewing

> customer feedback as more valuable over time. Your personal feedback

> might not be solicited (again, scale), but for the relevant audiences and

> markets the right teams continue to work on how to solicit and incorporate

> that critical feedback.

>

> If you're interested in actually improving Microsoft, that should likely

> become easier over time.

> If you're simply interested in making fun of Microsoft, hopefully that

> becomes harder over time.

> Either way, I wish you the best of luck in your own computing experiences.

>

> Cheers,

> -Zach

> --

> Speaking for myself only.

> See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.

> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no

> rights.

>

>

In article <OKYc$VexIHA.3968@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,

zachd [MSFT] <zachd@nomailplz.online.microsoft.com> wrote:

>

>Wombats rule.

>

>Yeah, open those with IE.

 

 

When I right-click a wombat IE says it can't open it cause

marsupial isn't a known protocol.

 

Anyway, I always thought the best thing to open wombats with was

a chain saw.

"Buddha" <TEPonta@SBCGlobal.net> wrote in message

news:3AD59201-45FF-4479-9B3B-E5D0EE24A5D7@microsoft.com...

> I've been using M$ products and Windows since the initial release years

> ago. My comments are based on personal observations over the years, as

> well as the experiences of friends and coworkers.

 

I'm sorry the concerns of your spheres aren't being listened to as well as

you would like. Generally I think there's been a marked improvement in the

communication channels over time, but again we're talking about amazing

scale, and it's going to be easy to find holes in any solution for a long

time to come. =\

 

My first software project shipped in the tens, my last credited one shipped

in the jabillions. I keep tabs on the (many many) people who consume my

work and try to guide my future development based upon that, but it's a

whole different scale. =)

> The sheer volume of complaints you describe yourself should tell M$

> something about the reliability of their latest release.

 

To be clear, for obvious reasons (NDA), I made no mention of nor alluded to

volume or numbers. My sole reference was to an old Windows Media resource

that got chewed up by nonsense, as opposed to any 'volume of complaints'.

(A while ago I went through a large amount of that ""feedback"" there (over

time period 'N') and ran into one feedback about a missing AVI codec problem

and that was about it as far as meaningful communication.) There have been

a number of much better much more refined programs to solicit additional

feedback, so attaching meaning to some unknown 'volume' comparative quantity

would be a flawed concept at best. =)

 

I think when you start getting into the specifics of complaints that Vista

provides a much better support path than XP, but then again Vista gains from

the painful XP experiences that everyone has generally put out of their

memory at this point. If you reset your memory at XP SP2 as most people

tend to, then sure XP rocks. But XP SP2 (and Vista) benefit from having

stopped the company to refocus on security - with the associated costs.

*shrug*

 

What I do know is that I'm loving watching top problems get addressed as we

move forward. XP, Vista, or any mythical future beast, it seems like the

right people are listening intently and building better systems to fine tune

received feedback from whatever venue.

 

I'm sure there are better ways to do things, both in terms of communication

and software. At the same time, I'm pretty excited about the efforts I see

happening to make things better.

 

 

The counter-response to all this would be that "I myself am not pleased in

some fashion", and the response to that is: about what, specifically? If

you're addicted to XXX feature, maybe company Y have wanted or needed to

focus on other things and the 99.2% rest of the market. But maybe you have

interesting insight YYY, and that leads to some future goodness. Regardless

of *perception*, it's always the best plan to keep focused on the specific

concerns you're facing. That's why I have a marked emphasis on getting the

specifics out of everyone: "Joe" and I may never see eye to eye, but it's

important for me to understand the specifics of his concerns so I or others

can contemplate the merit of this Drastic Problem. If there is something

obviously wrong, that's usually an insight of value.

 

The better the signal to noise ratio in this newsgroup and other

communication channels, the more likely it is that feedback can get properly

consumed and accounted for. =)

 

Cheers,

-Zach

--

Speaking for myself only.

See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"Adam Albright" <AA@ABC.net> wrote in message

news:umub44t20ncqc2prrindu13a2keavflm11@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:51:23 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"

> <zachd@nomailplz.online.microsoft.com> wrote:

>

>>

>>Wombats rule.

>>

>>Yeah, open those with IE. The Photo Gallery had limited support in this

>>arena as they had other things to concentrate on in this iteration, sorry.

>

> Microsoft software engineers concentrate? On what, how to make the

> next version of Windows bigger, slower, more buggy? Damn they did it!

 

I think part of the idea is to get so many employed it nurse maiding

MS-Windows and products like Vista it develops mass support. Seriously.

The more people employed servicing windows develops mass support even though

valid alternatives exist. Sort of like why VHS won over Betamax.

 

CEO/CIO's suck it up because a data center server looks like their desktop

and the familiarly of buying them costly rodents seems right. But on a

server, a GUI is a waste of CPU resources. Your average CEO/CIO wouldn't

know a byte from a bite. And don't much care either. Even Ballmer in his

emails gets capitalization and punctuation wrong. But it keeps the less

knowledgeable buying MS-Windows.

 

But, what made me respond is we always crap on the software engineers when

really it is a management issue. Being a C/C++/assembler systems programmer

for a good part of my career I can say bad design is the issue with Vista.

UAC was jammed in at the last minute, tons of DRM adding no value to the

customer, poor Q/A plan, no cleanup of legacy and obviously not very

productive for 5 years of work. Finding out Vista sucks after release is a

priceless, classic management mistake. They are out of touch with reality.

 

Mind you, 1/2 the people out there that call themselves software engineers

are anything but inexperienced undisciplined basement hackers (at best).

But it is managements responsibility to structure the environment to counter

this.

"DaddyMouse" <DaddyMouse@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:69654F89-7E57-437F-9962-58A693E642A5@microsoft.com...

> Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the money

> comes

> from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is taking away certain

> conveniences from customers on the assumption that Microsoft knows better

> what we want to do than we do.

 

I have been with Microsoft since DOS 1, and my frustration level with them

has grown over the years to the point I do not know why I am still a

Microsoft customer. They simply are arrogant and condescending. They do not

care how much grief they cause customers. Their goal seems to be more about

forcing customers to pay more money with little concern that they are

providing a product with features that are wanted, or providing features

that work.

 

Office 2007 changes prove they do not care if they wreck the productivity of

experienced Office users. Why learn a Microsoft product if the next version

looks entirely different than the current one? Why should Microsoft be

trusted again?

 

With a new product like Vista, one would think Microsoft would take any and

all problems seriously and promptly fix them, or provide workarounds so that

the new Vista would be at least as good as previous versions of Windows. I

have had problem with Vista's new search since the beginning and have

pressed Microsoft to the point they just reject my emails instead of

addressing the problem. Microsoft cannot reproduce the problem, but they

have no diagnostics that would help them (or me) understand the failures on

my Vista Ultimate machine. They refuse to let me downgrade my Vista Ultimate

to XP Pro so I don't have to deal with the problem they've caused.

Microsoft has provided no solutions, yet they just want more money?

 

Our IT guys REFUSE to look at Vista and REFUSE to give me permission to call

about the search problem in the name of our company since it's a personal

problem (I bought Vista with my own money). Our IT guys do not want to be

hassled by Microsoft about Vista since it provides few business reasons for

a change. So, as an early Vista adopter and an individual, Microsoft sticks

its head in the sand instead of listening to folks with years of experience

and real problems.

 

I've given up on Microsoft since they simply do not know how to treat paying

customers. I will be looking seriously at alternatives, including Macs and

Linux boxes.

Celegans wrote:

> "DaddyMouse" <DaddyMouse@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:69654F89-7E57-437F-9962-58A693E642A5@microsoft.com...

>> Of course Microsoft cares about its customers. that's where the money

>> comes

>> from. What Microsoft apparently DOESN'T care about is taking away certain

>> conveniences from customers on the assumption that Microsoft knows better

>> what we want to do than we do.

>

> I have been with Microsoft since DOS 1, and my frustration level with them

> has grown over the years to the point I do not know why I am still a

> Microsoft customer. They simply are arrogant and condescending. They do not

> care how much grief they cause customers. Their goal seems to be more about

> forcing customers to pay more money with little concern that they are

> providing a product with features that are wanted, or providing features

> that work.

>

> Office 2007 changes prove they do not care if they wreck the productivity of

> experienced Office users. Why learn a Microsoft product if the next version

> looks entirely different than the current one? Why should Microsoft be

> trusted again?

>

> With a new product like Vista, one would think Microsoft would take any and

> all problems seriously and promptly fix them, or provide workarounds so that

> the new Vista would be at least as good as previous versions of Windows. I

> have had problem with Vista's new search since the beginning and have

> pressed Microsoft to the point they just reject my emails instead of

> addressing the problem. Microsoft cannot reproduce the problem, but they

> have no diagnostics that would help them (or me) understand the failures on

> my Vista Ultimate machine. They refuse to let me downgrade my Vista Ultimate

> to XP Pro so I don't have to deal with the problem they've caused.

> Microsoft has provided no solutions, yet they just want more money?

>

> Our IT guys REFUSE to look at Vista and REFUSE to give me permission to call

> about the search problem in the name of our company since it's a personal

> problem (I bought Vista with my own money). Our IT guys do not want to be

> hassled by Microsoft about Vista since it provides few business reasons for

> a change. So, as an early Vista adopter and an individual, Microsoft sticks

> its head in the sand instead of listening to folks with years of experience

> and real problems.

>

> I've given up on Microsoft since they simply do not know how to treat paying

> customers. I will be looking seriously at alternatives, including Macs and

> Linux boxes.

>

>

>

 

As far as Linux is concerned, be sure and check out Ubuntu at

http://www.ubuntu.com/

 

Alias