> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?

> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?

>

> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?

> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?

 

 

I can't help - so I apologize to all first :)

 

 

Jupiter Jones presented some logical and reasonable questions for Linux

community to think about though you may not wish to answer here but Linux

advocates cannot afford to ignore those questions, if Linux really wants to

be a valid "mainstream" alternative.

 

I meant to write a longer post but decided to make a long story short:

 

(1) If Linux is going to be a mainstream alternative, the community has to

address those issues such as usability (not with your standards),

application and driver availabilities, just to name a few. Note: Customers

and users won't care about the reasons for not having enough, and all they

care is what are given.

 

(2) Price is one factor but not the only one. People pay for car insurance

knowing (and hoping) they don't use it for most of the time, but still,

they're willing to pay for it. It's the same logic for many are willing to

buy products and sometime with support even they don't really use it. Sense

of security is one of those factors. We all know search engines and

communities are our friends, but I for one won't count on search engines and

communities as our supports. The point is - price is not the only factor

and refer to (1) for some other considerations.

 

Let me try for the last time by using two examples to demonstrate

"technology" may not be relevant in some buying decisions, and one is in IT

industry and the other one is in automobile industry:

 

(1) ERP: SAP is the market leader of enterprise resources planning software

(ERP is the common term) and when it and its partners engage a prospect

(usually enterprise-level customers), they always start with senior business

executives. Anyone has any experience on ERP would know the complexity of

the software, and yet, if senior executives cannot comprehend the use of it

in NON-TECHNICAL terms, none is going to spend multimillions US dollars on

the software. Technologies and software specs won't even be discussed if

the first evaluation won't pass.

 

Moral of the example: We can spend all the time we have till the end of the

world on discussing and debating technologies but it won't matter much for

the non-tech users and customers who represent the majority of the market.

In particular, Linux community hasn't really spent too much effort in this

area, if any. Until Linux community is willing to face and accept the fact,

it won't change anything in the big picture.

 

(2) Manual (stick-shift) vs. automatic transmission: How many people in the

US (and many parts of the world) are now driving a stick-shift even it has a

better fuel consumption and performance? Do car manufacturers roll back to

stick-shift when we are having such unbelievable high oil prices or do they

strive to come up other alternatives?

 

Moral of the example: Most non-techies look for ease-of-use across all

product categories including but not limited to IT products. Again, until

Linux community is willing to face and accept it, it's not going to be the

mainstream.

 

In summary, I am not saying or implying Linux is not a good OS or Vista is a

better choice. What I have been trying to tell Linux advocates (or

technical professionals for the same matter) is - technology by itself is

not enough for people to use a product.

 

Your collective efforts will have a much better return if spending on large

OEM's (e.g. Dell, IBM, HP, Acer, etc.) and application and peripheral

providers. Microsoft understood this long long long...time ago, and I still

fail to understand for why Linux community doesn't follow a success story

but insisting on a not-so-good one (a.k.a - Apple).

 

As always, just my two cents thoughts, and my last post on OS alternative

subject.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intension.

 

 

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message

news:OBgyXvyvHHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Please clear the facts.

> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?

> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?

>

> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?

> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?

>

> Give us these facts and end the speculation.

> Many Linux advocates seem to base much of what they say on the above being

> equal for both platforms.

> I suspect these differences explain what I NEVER hear Linux advocates say.

>

> Waiting for your facts...

>

> --

> Jupiter Jones [MVP]

> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar

> http://www.dts-l.org

>

>

> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

> news:e4vbqoyvHHA.4132@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> Larry Maturo wrote:

>>> Hi Alias,

>>>

>>> You wrote:

>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in the

>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one need do

>>> is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.

>>>

>>> Fact is, you are telling the unwashed masses to use Ubuntu. If they do,

>>> you

>>> can bet they won't have that backup. Also, if your campign succeeds,

>>> then

>>> virus, rootkit, and malware authors will start hitting Linux, so watch

>>> what you

>>> wish for.

>>>

>>> -- Larry Maturo

>>

>> Interesting speculation. Too bad it's only that: speculation.

>>

>> Alias

>>>

>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>> news:eDCvIqwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>> Alias

>>>>>

>>>>> You are way too smug regarding how safe you believe Linux/Unix to be..

>>>>>

>>>>> One of the articles below explains how a Linux system can be a virus

>>>>> carrier without the user ever knowing.. this situation is every bit as

>>>>> bad as a Windows system that has been breached.. the others are from

>>>>> different years, but all alerting to the fact that Linux/Unix and MAC

>>>>> are not 100% virus immune..

>>>>>

>>>>> I have yet to come across a 'true' Linux professional who would put

>>>>> their name to the misleading claims made by you.. your anti-MS stance

>>>>> is blinding you to the realities of ANY OS.. that makes you

>>>>> dangerous..

>>>> Care to give me proof that a Linux box has been compromised? Can't?

>>>> Didn't think so. Shall we compare the number of Windows boxes that are

>>>> a part of a bot-herd to Linux? Didn't think so.

>>>>

>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in the

>>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one need

>>>> do is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>>>

>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>>>> news:eS2gVRwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>> Richard Urban wrote:

>>>>>>> Alias doesn't know about the history of his operating system of

>>>>>>> choice to know that rootkits were developed for Unix and are 100%

>>>>>>> effective in Linux/Ubuntu.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> Yet there are no reports of this possibility happening so go figure.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Alias

>>>

"Jeanette" <jrusso2@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:OVt$BtyvHHA.4612@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>> Because the user gives it permission, albeit unwittingly? How do you

>> think systems get infected?

>>

>> Re proof, two of us have provided reading material from Linux sources..

>> can you not read and comprehend them?

>>

>>

>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>> news:uxAiWXxvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>

>>>> * Alias:

>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>>> Back to the present. Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus, root

>>>>>>> kit or any other

>>>>>>> malware. http://www.ubuntu.com/

>>>>>> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/whitepapers/linux/901.php

>>>>>> Linux RootKits For Beginners - From Prevention to Removal

>>>>>>

>>>>>> One day while reading a mail list for the Linux Users Group in my

>>>>>> hometown I discovered a call

>>>>>> for help. It was a posting from a novice Linux user with a disturbing

>>>>>> issue. While doing some

>>>>>> routine checks on a Linux system, he found a user that had been added

>>>>>> to the system with the

>>>>>> user id of 0 (root). His first thought was that it might be a

>>>>>> rootkit. He wanted to know what

>>>>>> he could do to verify it was a rootkit and how to remove it from the

>>>>>> system. He further asked

>>>>>> for suggestions on preventative measures to ensure this kind of

>>>>>> attack does not reoccur. That

>>>>>> situation prompted me to write this paper to an understanding of

>>>>>> rootkits and its effects. This

>>>>>> paper will also discuss how to monitor for a rootkit, and the steps

>>>>>> that need to be taken to

>>>>>> remove one.

>>>>>>

>>>>> I never said that a firewall wasn't necessary. Ubuntu comes with one

>>>>> built-in. I would also recommend a router hard firewall.

>>>>

>>>> "Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus, root kit

>>>> or any other malware." -Alias

>>>>

>>>> You said "never", you were wrong.

>>>>

>>>> "Absolute truth" is for absolute fools.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> -Michael

>>>

>>> Is there an echo in here? If one has Ubuntu that comes with a firewall

>>> and a router with a firewall how, pray tell, will anyone install a root

>>> kit?

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

> There are several ways I have seen Linux systems be compromised.

>

> 1. Through an application that has security issues, such as older versions

> of Apache or BIND or even javascript.

>

> 2. Weak SSH passwords. This is an attack vector many new users fail to

> protect.

>

> 3. Through installations of unknown software that might contain a root kit

>

>

>

> 3.

 

 

But... but... Alias said that could "never" happen? Is he possibly mistaken?

Does a bear...

 

Lang

"Frank" <fb@nospamm.cmm> wrote in message

news:eLB$KexvHHA.312@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Alias wrote:

>

>> Frank wrote:

>>

>>> Alias wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Got proof? Didn't think so.

>>>>

>>>

>>> ----------------------------------

>>> Got proof it is? Didn't think so?

>>> You're pathetic!

>>> Frank

>>

>>

>> Um, insults and a lack of reading comprehension on your part do not

>> qualify as proof.

>>

>> Alias

> --------------------------

>

> How stupid can one person be? hahaha...no need to ask. Hey butt munch,

> prove your statement or STFU!

> Frank

 

 

This is from the guy who swore, within the past week, that he would "never"

respond to you again. Hmm... I wonder if he comprends what "never" means...

I think not.

 

Lang

You mean we are short some penquins... the sky can't hit'em? Get Alias a

penquin suit and he can fill in.......

 

"MICHAEL" <u158627_emr2@dslr.net> wrote in message

news:uX1PEA4vHHA.2352@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>

> * norm:

>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>> * Mr. Happy:

>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>>>>>> Back to the present. Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus,

>>>>>>>>>> root kit or any

>>>>>>>>>> other malware. http://www.ubuntu.com/

>>>>>>>>> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/whitepapers/linux/901.php Linux

>>>>>>>>> RootKits For

>>>>>>>>> Beginners - From Prevention to Removal

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> One day while reading a mail list for the Linux Users Group in my

>>>>>>>>> hometown I

>>>>>>>>> discovered a call for help. It was a posting from a novice Linux

>>>>>>>>> user with a

>>>>>>>>> disturbing issue. While doing some routine checks on a Linux

>>>>>>>>> system, he found a

>>>>>>>>> user that had been added to the system with the user id of 0

>>>>>>>>> (root). His first

>>>>>>>>> thought was that it might be a rootkit. He wanted to know what he

>>>>>>>>> could do to

>>>>>>>>> verify it was a rootkit and how to remove it from the system. He

>>>>>>>>> further asked for

>>>>>>>>> suggestions on preventative measures to ensure this kind of

>>>>>>>>> attack does not

>>>>>>>>> reoccur. That situation prompted me to write this paper to an

>>>>>>>>> understanding of

>>>>>>>>> rootkits and its effects. This paper will also discuss how to

>>>>>>>>> monitor for a

>>>>>>>>> rootkit, and the steps that need to be taken to remove one.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I never said that a firewall wasn't necessary. Ubuntu comes with

>>>>>>>> one built-in. I

>>>>>>>> would also recommend a router hard firewall.

>>>>>>> "Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus, root kit or any other

>>>>>>> malware." -Alias

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> You said "never", you were wrong.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "Absolute truth" is for absolute fools.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> -Michael

>>>>>> Is there an echo in here?

>>>>> Only the echoes of your foolish nonsense.

>>>>>

>>>>>> If one has Ubuntu that comes with a firewall

>>>>> So does Vista.

>>>>>

>>>>>> and a router with a firewall how, pray tell, will anyone install a

>>>>>> root kit?

>>>>> You never stated that in your original reply.

>>>>>

>>>>> "Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus, root kit or any other

>>>>> malware." -Alias

>>>>>

>>>>> I see no mention of using additional security measures.

>>>>>

>>>>> Now you bring up the "ifs". If a Window user properly secures their

>>>>> machine, they will

>>>>> not suffer from rootkits, either.

>>>>>

>>>>> Amazing that there are programs for Linux rootkit removal when there

>>>>> are no Linux machines

>>>>> getting infected.

>>>>>

>>>>> Amazing such warnings, as the below, exist if no Linux users were

>>>>> being infected.

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.juniper.net/security/auto/vulnerabilities/vuln734.html

>>>>> Severity: HIGH

>>>>> Description: The Satori Linux Rootkit is a collection of publicly

>>>>> available Trojan

>>>>> utilities that target Linux systems. It is also known as Linux Rootkit

>>>>> 4 and is

>>>>> distributed by The Crackers Layer.

>>>> Please, at least try and stay current. Linux Rootkit IV was released in

>>>> November 26,

>>>> 1998!!!! Really had to scratch around the Net to find one?

>>>>

>>>> http://www.ossec.net/rootkits/studies/lrk5.txt

>>> My problem with Alias is that he spoke in absolute terms,

>>> as if was impossible to for Linux to be infected by viruses,

>>> trojans, worms, or rootkits... he was wrong.

>>>

>>> The fact that there haven't been many major efforts at creating Linux

>>> worms

>>> isn't proof that they are impossible.

>>>

>>> http://www.ossec.net/rootkits/

>>>

>>> http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/qna/0,289202,sid39_gci954631,00.html

>>> They may not have the infamy of Code Red and Nimda, but there are Linux

>>> viruses and worms in

>>> the wild. Here are some of the more infamous pieces of malicious code

>>> that have a taste for Linux:

>>

>> Your point is well taken (and should be by everyone), but in reading the

>> info you provided below, one would think the world was falling in on

>> linux. That is not exactly the case, and is not the case now.

>

> Norm,

>

> My intention was not to to claim Linux is worse than Windows,

> or that the sky is falling on the penguins. The dolt was wrong,

> and he needed to know.

>

>

> -Michael

Lang Murphy wrote:

> "Jeanette" <jrusso2@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> news:OVt$BtyvHHA.4612@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>> Because the user gives it permission, albeit unwittingly? How do you

>>> think systems get infected?

>>>

>>> Re proof, two of us have provided reading material from Linux

>>> sources.. can you not read and comprehend them?

>>>

>>>

>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>> news:uxAiWXxvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>> MICHAEL wrote:

>>>>>>> * Alias:

>>>>>>>> Back to the present. Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus,

>>>>>>>> root kit or any other

>>>>>>>> malware. http://www.ubuntu.com/

>>>>>>> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/whitepapers/linux/901.php

>>>>>>> Linux RootKits For Beginners - From Prevention to Removal

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> One day while reading a mail list for the Linux Users Group in my

>>>>>>> hometown I discovered a call

>>>>>>> for help. It was a posting from a novice Linux user with a

>>>>>>> disturbing issue. While doing some

>>>>>>> routine checks on a Linux system, he found a user that had been

>>>>>>> added to the system with the

>>>>>>> user id of 0 (root). His first thought was that it might be a

>>>>>>> rootkit. He wanted to know what

>>>>>>> he could do to verify it was a rootkit and how to remove it from

>>>>>>> the system. He further asked

>>>>>>> for suggestions on preventative measures to ensure this kind of

>>>>>>> attack does not reoccur. That

>>>>>>> situation prompted me to write this paper to an understanding of

>>>>>>> rootkits and its effects. This

>>>>>>> paper will also discuss how to monitor for a rootkit, and the

>>>>>>> steps that need to be taken to

>>>>>>> remove one.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> I never said that a firewall wasn't necessary. Ubuntu comes with

>>>>>> one built-in. I would also recommend a router hard firewall.

>>>>>

>>>>> "Use Ubuntu and never worry about a virus, root kit

>>>>> or any other malware." -Alias

>>>>>

>>>>> You said "never", you were wrong.

>>>>>

>>>>> "Absolute truth" is for absolute fools.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> -Michael

>>>>

>>>> Is there an echo in here? If one has Ubuntu that comes with a

>>>> firewall and a router with a firewall how, pray tell, will anyone

>>>> install a root kit?

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>

>> There are several ways I have seen Linux systems be compromised.

>>

>> 1. Through an application that has security issues, such as older

>> versions of Apache or BIND or even javascript.

 

Ubuntu updates *everything* on your computer on a regular basis.

>>

>> 2. Weak SSH passwords. This is an attack vector many new users fail

>> to protect.

 

User's fault, then, isn't it?

>>

>> 3. Through installations of unknown software that might contain a root

>> kit

 

User's fault, then, isn't it?

>>

>>

>>

>> 3.

>

>

> But... but... Alias said that could "never" happen? Is he possibly

> mistaken? Does a bear...

>

> Lang

 

There's always the possibility. It's also possible that your computer

could be taken from you at the point of a gun. Neither scenario is likely.

 

Alias

>

> No proof, eh (insults don't qualify as proof)? Everyone act surprised.

>

> Alias

 

I would think that the article by kaspersky labs would suffice as proof. If

a virus was unable to infect a linux box how did it get out in the wild in

the first place to be detected by these antivirus labs?

 

Jeff

"Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

news:unAk$QwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> Spirit wrote:

>> Not exactly accurate :

>>

>> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3601946

>

> It accurately reported NO Linux computer has been compromised.

> Possibilities are one thing reality another. It's possible that you will

> be struck by lightening today but unlikely.

>

> Alias

 

 

The article did not report there weren't any either just that there are

exploits and malware going around for Linux. But then if linux was so

impervious how would it go around to begin with???

 

Jeff

"Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

news:eWZERrwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> Richard Urban wrote:

>> Alias will refuse to believe "any" of this. He has placed his head where

>> the sun doesn't shine.

>>

>

> With what would one be safer from malware, Linux or Windows?

>

> Alias

 

I would think if they are both running protection (a/v, etc...) and the user

knows where he is getting his software from it would be about equal...

 

Jeff

>

> And, so far, no one here has provided ONE CASE where a Linux box got

> infected. All you've provided are theories and insults.

>

> Yawn.

>

> Alias

 

How many people here no many people that even use linux?

 

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

>

>

>>

>> No proof, eh (insults don't qualify as proof)? Everyone act surprised.

>>

>> Alias

>

> I would think that the article by kaspersky labs would suffice as

> proof. If a virus was unable to infect a linux box how did it get out

> in the wild in the first place to be detected by these antivirus labs?

>

> Jeff

 

It's talking about a possibility, not a common occurrence. It's also

possible that someone will steal your computer at gun point but does

that mean you should go out and hire bodyguards?

 

Alias

>

> Is there an echo in here? If one has Ubuntu that comes with a firewall and

> a router with a firewall how, pray tell, will anyone install a root kit?

>

> Alias

 

You used to comment all the time that linux doesn't need a firewall because

of how secure it is.... It wasn't until I pointed out to you the fact that

ubuntu comes with one that you changed that story...

 

 

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

>

> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

> news:unAk$QwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> Spirit wrote:

>>> Not exactly accurate :

>>>

>>> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3601946

>>

>> It accurately reported NO Linux computer has been compromised.

>> Possibilities are one thing reality another. It's possible that you

>> will be struck by lightening today but unlikely.

>>

>> Alias

>

>

> The article did not report there weren't any either just that there are

> exploits and malware going around for Linux. But then if linux was so

> impervious how would it go around to begin with???

>

> Jeff

 

Via some compromised Windows box, of course!

 

Alias

Jeff wrote:

>

> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

> news:eWZERrwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> Richard Urban wrote:

>>> Alias will refuse to believe "any" of this. He has placed his head

>>> where the sun doesn't shine.

>>>

>>

>> With what would one be safer from malware, Linux or Windows?

>>

>> Alias

>

> I would think if they are both running protection (a/v, etc...) and the

> user knows where he is getting his software from it would be about equal...

>

> Jeff

 

You're living in dreamland. Here's an example of a trojan for Windows

that doesn't ask your permission to do *anything*:

 

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9026323&intsrc=hm_list

 

Oops.

 

Alias

Jeff wrote:

>

>

>>

>> And, so far, no one here has provided ONE CASE where a Linux box got

>> infected. All you've provided are theories and insults.

>>

>> Yawn.

>>

>> Alias

>

> How many people here no many people that even use linux?

>

> Jeff

 

I *know* quite a few.

 

Alias

Jeff wrote:

>

>>

>> Is there an echo in here? If one has Ubuntu that comes with a firewall

>> and a router with a firewall how, pray tell, will anyone install a

>> root kit?

>>

>> Alias

>

> You used to comment all the time that linux doesn't need a firewall

> because of how secure it is.... It wasn't until I pointed out to you

> the fact that ubuntu comes with one that you changed that story...

>

>

> Jeff

 

Um, if it comes with one, one doesn't need another one. No can you stop

being picky and just admit that Linux is MUCH safer than Windows?

 

Alias

>>

>>

>> Where do you think the term "root kit" came from? Is there a root user in

>> Windows?

>>

>

> Hence the need for a firewall which Ubuntu provides. Oops.

>

> Alias

 

A firewall is not going to prevent the installation of rootkits.

 

I believe sony was installing them just by playing their music cd's on your

computer.

 

So you buy some software (or download it for free) and it installs a rootkit

that criples the security on your system or causes other problems. Since

you said ok to installing it (even if you didn't know it was going to

install a rootkit) how is linux or windows better in this case?

 

Jeff

"Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

news:uESsVm%23vHHA.4736@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>

> Um, if it comes with one, one doesn't need another one. No can you stop

> being picky and just admit that Linux is MUCH safer than Windows?

>

> Alias

 

 

It is safety by obscurity. I'll certainly admit that in it's default state

Linux is more secure than any Windows desktop operating system in it's

default state. This is more an accident of history and what users expect

than anything else. In the server world I'd rate them about equal. In a

non-default state Windows can easily be made as secure if not more secure

than Linux. This is because there is a much bigger market for Windows

products so niche products (like some security products) can be profitable.

Even straight out of the box both Windows XP and Vista can be made as secure

as Linux. With XP it takes some knowledge. With Vista it takes minimal

knowledge. Running as a standard user with UAC on will do it.

 

--

Kerry Brown

Microsoft MVP - Shell/User

http://www.vistahelp.ca

>>

>> I would think that the article by kaspersky labs would suffice as proof.

>> If a virus was unable to infect a linux box how did it get out in the

>> wild in the first place to be detected by these antivirus labs?

>>

>> Jeff

>

> It's talking about a possibility, not a common occurrence. It's also

> possible that someone will steal your computer at gun point but does that

> mean you should go out and hire bodyguards?

>

> Alias

 

It's also possible someone could come and steal my linux box except I don't

have one... The reason it doesn't occur (but has occurred) is because not

nearly as many people use linux as windows. If the roles were reversed then

you would hear people complaining about their linux box needing "cleaned"...

 

The only reason you don't hear much if at all is because most people don't

even know someone using linux...

 

Jeff

"Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

news:eY9Rsj%23vHHA.1188@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Jeff wrote:

>>

>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>> news:unAk$QwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>> Spirit wrote:

>>>> Not exactly accurate :

>>>>

>>>> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3601946

>>>

>>> It accurately reported NO Linux computer has been compromised.

>>> Possibilities are one thing reality another. It's possible that you

>>> will be struck by lightening today but unlikely.

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

>>

>> The article did not report there weren't any either just that there are

>> exploits and malware going around for Linux. But then if linux was so

>> impervious how would it go around to begin with???

>>

>> Jeff

>

> Via some compromised Windows box, of course!

>

> Alias

 

For some reason I doubt you are going to see windows running linux code...

 

Jeff

"Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

news:ecnQpl%23vHHA.1188@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Jeff wrote:

>>

>>

>>>

>>> And, so far, no one here has provided ONE CASE where a Linux box got

>>> infected. All you've provided are theories and insults.

>>>

>>> Yawn.

>>>

>>> Alias

>>

>> How many people here no many people that even use linux?

>>

>> Jeff

>

> I *know* quite a few.

>

> Alias

 

Ok, one person....

 

 

Jeff

>>

>> You used to comment all the time that linux doesn't need a firewall

>> because of how secure it is.... It wasn't until I pointed out to you the

>> fact that ubuntu comes with one that you changed that story...

>>

>>

>> Jeff

>

> Um, if it comes with one, one doesn't need another one. No can you stop

> being picky and just admit that Linux is MUCH safer than Windows?

>

> Alias

 

I'm not being picky just stating a fact....

 

I also don't see it as being "safer" just less likely to be attacked as

there are far fewer linux boxes out there than winodws boxes...

 

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

>

>>>

>>> I would think that the article by kaspersky labs would suffice as

>>> proof. If a virus was unable to infect a linux box how did it get out

>>> in the wild in the first place to be detected by these antivirus labs?

>>>

>>> Jeff

>>

>> It's talking about a possibility, not a common occurrence. It's also

>> possible that someone will steal your computer at gun point but does

>> that mean you should go out and hire bodyguards?

>>

>> Alias

>

> It's also possible someone could come and steal my linux box except I

> don't have one... The reason it doesn't occur (but has occurred) is

> because not nearly as many people use linux as windows. If the roles

> were reversed then you would hear people complaining about their linux

> box needing "cleaned"...

 

Unfounded speculation.

>

> The only reason you don't hear much if at all is because most people

> don't even know someone using linux...

>

> Jeff

 

The reason you don't hear about it is because it doesn't happen.

 

Alias

Jeff wrote:

>

> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

> news:eY9Rsj%23vHHA.1188@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>> Jeff wrote:

>>>

>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>> news:unAk$QwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>> Spirit wrote:

>>>>> Not exactly accurate :

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3601946

>>>>

>>>> It accurately reported NO Linux computer has been compromised.

>>>> Possibilities are one thing reality another. It's possible that you

>>>> will be struck by lightening today but unlikely.

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>

>>>

>>> The article did not report there weren't any either just that there

>>> are exploits and malware going around for Linux. But then if linux

>>> was so impervious how would it go around to begin with???

>>>

>>> Jeff

>>

>> Via some compromised Windows box, of course!

>>

>> Alias

>

> For some reason I doubt you are going to see windows running linux code...

>

> Jeff

 

Face it, Linux is almost bullet proof and Windows is a sieve.

 

Alias

xfile wrote:

>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?

>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?

>>

>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?

>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?

>

>

> I can't help - so I apologize to all first :)

>

>

> Jupiter Jones presented some logical and reasonable questions for Linux

> community to think about though you may not wish to answer here but Linux

> advocates cannot afford to ignore those questions, if Linux really wants to

> be a valid "mainstream" alternative.

>

> I meant to write a longer post but decided to make a long story short:

>

> (1) If Linux is going to be a mainstream alternative, the community has to

> address those issues such as usability (not with your standards),

> application and driver availabilities, just to name a few. Note: Customers

> and users won't care about the reasons for not having enough, and all they

> care is what are given.

Please expound on the "issues such as usability (not with your

standards)" statement. What "standards" are you referring to? As to

applications and driver availabilities, where do these need to emanate

from, if not already available in open source? If a program is

proprietary and not ported to linux, does the fault lie with linux? If a

hardware manufacturer will not provide a linux driver or the source code

to linux so that a driver might be coded, does the fault lie with linux?

>

> (2) Price is one factor but not the only one. People pay for car insurance

> knowing (and hoping) they don't use it for most of the time, but still,

> they're willing to pay for it. It's the same logic for many are willing to

> buy products and sometime with support even they don't really use it. Sense

> of security is one of those factors. We all know search engines and

> communities are our friends, but I for one won't count on search engines and

> communities as our supports. The point is - price is not the only factor

> and refer to (1) for some other considerations.

Please consider the following in terms of your above statement. "Free"

in the open source community really isn't addressing the issue of cost.

It addresses the issue of freedom, as in freedom of use. An argument

becomes less so if one is arguing about the wrong concept.

See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html for reading on the issue.

"Free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the

concept, you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free beer."

Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy,

distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it

refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:

* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your

needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a

precondition for this.

* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor

(freedom 2).

* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements

to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access

to the source code is a precondition for this.

>

> Let me try for the last time by using two examples to demonstrate

> "technology" may not be relevant in some buying decisions, and one is in IT

> industry and the other one is in automobile industry:

>

> (1) ERP: SAP is the market leader of enterprise resources planning software

> (ERP is the common term) and when it and its partners engage a prospect

> (usually enterprise-level customers), they always start with senior business

> executives. Anyone has any experience on ERP would know the complexity of

> the software, and yet, if senior executives cannot comprehend the use of it

> in NON-TECHNICAL terms, none is going to spend multimillions US dollars on

> the software. Technologies and software specs won't even be discussed if

> the first evaluation won't pass.

If the above is true, it would seem unlikely that there would ever be

ANY technological improvements made if everything had to go through the

senior business execs first. Why have the need for people who are

trained and developed to evaluate what is available on the market and

make recommendations/decisions on what the company needs? Why have the

need for buyers that procure what is available based on recommendations

they might receive?

>

> Moral of the example: We can spend all the time we have till the end of the

> world on discussing and debating technologies but it won't matter much for

> the non-tech users and customers who represent the majority of the market.

> In particular, Linux community hasn't really spent too much effort in this

> area, if any. Until Linux community is willing to face and accept the fact,

> it won't change anything in the big picture.

 

The majority of the market is indeed unaware of choices that are

available. But the awareness of more choice is on the horizon.

>

> (2) Manual (stick-shift) vs. automatic transmission: How many people in the

> US (and many parts of the world) are now driving a stick-shift even it has a

> better fuel consumption and performance? Do car manufacturers roll back to

> stick-shift when we are having such unbelievable high oil prices or do they

> strive to come up other alternatives?

>

> Moral of the example: Most non-techies look for ease-of-use across all

> product categories including but not limited to IT products. Again, until

> Linux community is willing to face and accept it, it's not going to be the

> mainstream.

 

There have been vast strides made is ease of use concerning linux. Is it

for everyone? No. But it does have far more potential for mass use than

ever before.

>

> In summary, I am not saying or implying Linux is not a good OS or Vista is a

> better choice. What I have been trying to tell Linux advocates (or

> technical professionals for the same matter) is - technology by itself is

> not enough for people to use a product.

>

> Your collective efforts will have a much better return if spending on large

> OEM's (e.g. Dell, IBM, HP, Acer, etc.) and application and peripheral

> providers. Microsoft understood this long long long...time ago, and I still

> fail to understand for why Linux community doesn't follow a success story

> but insisting on a not-so-good one (a.k.a - Apple).

>

> As always, just my two cents thoughts, and my last post on OS alternative

> subject.

>

> Sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intension.

>

>

> "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message

> news:OBgyXvyvHHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>> Please clear the facts.

>> What % of new Linux users have never owned a computer?

>> What % of new Windows users have never owned a computer?

>>

>> What is the average computer experience of a new Windows user?

>> What is the average computer experience of a new Linux user?

>>

>> Give us these facts and end the speculation.

>> Many Linux advocates seem to base much of what they say on the above being

>> equal for both platforms.

>> I suspect these differences explain what I NEVER hear Linux advocates say.

>>

>> Waiting for your facts...

>>

>> --

>> Jupiter Jones [MVP]

>> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar

>> http://www.dts-l.org

>>

>>

>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>> news:e4vbqoyvHHA.4132@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>> Larry Maturo wrote:

>>>> Hi Alias,

>>>>

>>>> You wrote:

>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in the

>>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one need do

>>>> is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.

>>>>

>>>> Fact is, you are telling the unwashed masses to use Ubuntu. If they do,

>>>> you

>>>> can bet they won't have that backup. Also, if your campign succeeds,

>>>> then

>>>> virus, rootkit, and malware authors will start hitting Linux, so watch

>>>> what you

>>>> wish for.

>>>>

>>>> -- Larry Maturo

>>> Interesting speculation. Too bad it's only that: speculation.

>>>

>>> Alias

>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>>> news:eDCvIqwvHHA.4384@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>>> Mike Hall - MVP wrote:

>>>>>> Alias

>>>>>>

>>>>>> You are way too smug regarding how safe you believe Linux/Unix to be..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> One of the articles below explains how a Linux system can be a virus

>>>>>> carrier without the user ever knowing.. this situation is every bit as

>>>>>> bad as a Windows system that has been breached.. the others are from

>>>>>> different years, but all alerting to the fact that Linux/Unix and MAC

>>>>>> are not 100% virus immune..

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I have yet to come across a 'true' Linux professional who would put

>>>>>> their name to the misleading claims made by you.. your anti-MS stance

>>>>>> is blinding you to the realities of ANY OS.. that makes you

>>>>>> dangerous..

>>>>> Care to give me proof that a Linux box has been compromised? Can't?

>>>>> Didn't think so. Shall we compare the number of Windows boxes that are

>>>>> a part of a bot-herd to Linux? Didn't think so.

>>>>>

>>>>> Fact is that Windows is MUCH more susceptible than Ubuntu and, in the

>>>>> unlikely case that one's Ubuntu box has become infected, all one need

>>>>> do is nuke the user, create another one and restore the back up.

>>>>>

>>>>> Alias

>>>>>> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:eS2gVRwvHHA.3468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>>>>>> Richard Urban wrote:

>>>>>>>> Alias doesn't know about the history of his operating system of

>>>>>>>> choice to know that rootkits were developed for Unix and are 100%

>>>>>>>> effective in Linux/Ubuntu.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Yet there are no reports of this possibility happening so go figure.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Alias

>

>

 

 

--

norm

Jeff wrote:

>

> "Alias" <aka@maskedandanonymous.info> wrote in message

> news:ecnQpl%23vHHA.1188@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>> Jeff wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>> And, so far, no one here has provided ONE CASE where a Linux box got

>>>> infected. All you've provided are theories and insults.

>>>>

>>>> Yawn.

>>>>

>>>> Alias

>>>

>>> How many people here no many people that even use linux?

>>>

>>> Jeff

>>

>> I *know* quite a few.

>>

>> Alias

>

> Ok, one person....

 

There are others on this very news group that use Linux.

> Jeff

 

I know a family who would call a friend of mine who does computer repair

every three or four months because their son was downloading crap with

eMule. The machine was always chock full of viruses and malware. My

friend installed Ubuntu on a second hard drive and told the parents to

make sure the kid only used Ubuntu, not Windows. A year later and no

viruses or malware.

 

Alias