class action lawsuit

October 3, 200717 yr

norm wrote:

> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:fe0i59$3tn$1@aioe.org...

>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:fe0f9f$nb4$5@aioe.org...

>>>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>>>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:fe0d8c$irm$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>> Dwarf wrote:

>>>>>>>> Not once in this entire thread have I seen ANY concrete evidence

>>>>>>>> being provided about 'defects' in Vista. Those 'defects' that

>>>>>>>> have been mentioned are features in the OS, most of which can be

>>>>>>>> disabled if you do not wish to use them. Of course, you are

>>>>>>>> entitled to your views and opinions, but remember that nobody is

>>>>>>>> forcing you to use Vista, or indeed any Microsoft product.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> One of those 'features' of vista is the stealth updates. Where

>>>>>>> is it documented how to turn that off?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth

>>>>>> updates"

>>>>>> If you are referring to the updates that any machine that is using

>>>>>> Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it is in ANY

>>>>>> setting other then the one on the dialog which is labeled "Never

>>>>>> Check for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update since you

>>>>>> have you machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only

>>>>>> sensible for any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to

>>>>>> the machine - otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It

>>>>>> would not, you could be in a position not getting notified of

>>>>>> available updates due to the WU engine on your machine not working

>>>>>> correctly.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Where have you been, under a rock?

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9039681&intsrc=hm_list

>>>>>

>>>>> This *stealth* update has been all over the tech web sites and

>>>>> Google News. It was done even if you had auto updates TURNED OFF.

>>>>> It also makes it very difficult to do a repair install with XP.

>>>>>

>>>>> This, indeed, is a defect and a blaring one.

>>>>> --

>>>>> Alias

>>>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>>>

>>>> That is a Windows XP issue and not relevent to this discussion (as

>>>> we are users of and focussed on Windows Vista here.)

>>>> The so called stealth update to WU on Vista does not occur if you

>>>> have the forth option selected, as I describe in my post (above).

>>>>

>>>

>>> Not true. It installs regardless of the setting you have set in Auto

>>> Update and doesn't ask your permission. It does/did this to both

>>> Vista and XP but only fuÃ§ks up XP. What will MS install next without

>>> informing the computer owner?

>>>

>>> --

>>> Alias

>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>

>> Can you site an actual site the validates your claim that the WU on

>> VISTA that you term stealth still happen IF you have the 4th option

>> selected?

>> I am taking my lead from the Program Manger for Windows Update Nate

>> Clinton

>> http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2007/09/13/how-windows-update-keeps-itself-up-to-date.aspx

>>

> Mike, are the following are the 4 options you are referring to? If so,

> the update took place regardless of what option was selected.

> - Install update automatically (recommended)

> - Download updates but let me choose whether to install them

> - Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them

> - Never check for updates (not recommended)

>

> You may have missed the post in this ng from Kerry Brown about the issue:

> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message

> news:286728FE-0266-46B4-9FBA-1B04F62FBC5C@microsoft.com...

> After reading the many posts in this newsgroup, blogs from Microsoft,

> blogs from Microsoft critics and fans, magazine articles, I have come to

> the conclusion that Microsoft has overstepped the boundary of trust

> here. I know they legally have the right to update files with out notice

> because of the EULA. This does not excuse what they have done. They have

> an option to "Never check for updates". To me this includes updates for

> Windows Update. If it doesn't this should be stated clearly on that

> screen. The only thing that will make this clear to them is a public

> outcry. Please add your comments here for or against. It may not do any

> good but it will help to keep the issue in the public eye. Please don't

> turn this into an anti-Microsoft thread. Keep comments about the issue

> at hand and why you think it is right or wrong. Flaming Microsoft will

> get the issue ignored. Reasoned debate and comments are needed.

>

> --

> Kerry Brown

> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User

> http://www.vistahelp.ca

>

It's been amusing watching Mike digging a hole, MS have actually stated

that the updates would take place even with all the regular settings

off. I don't consider disabling a service like "BITS" an obvious user

option so by default Microsoft will "Ignore" the users choice (That is

the choice the user thinks they made) and download and install software

anyway. Considering that it's perfectly reasonable to have the update

system ask "I need to update myself or you won't get proper updates" one

is forced to wonder where this behavior leads.

Quote

Mark as Solution

October 3, 200717 yr

I like how you copy and paste that into my reply. Which I never said. If

your going to reply, Do not add other peoples comments to mine.

"Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

news:800BE547-B441-4952-B0DF-81E18E5F7CD9@microsoft.com...

> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

> <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0oet$njs$1@aioe.org...

>> Kevin Weaver wrote:

>>> So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista

>>> huh ? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at

>>> MS. You would get along great with the janitor.

>>

>> Mike B. is an ex-MS employee. But he is still a Ballmer Butt-Boy!

>>

>

> So now we see your last resort when your ability to engage in a

> professional discussion fails you, you just resort to petty childish name

> calling.

> --

> Mike Brannigan

>

> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

> <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0oet$njs$1@aioe.org...

>> Kevin Weaver wrote:

>>> So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista

>>> huh ? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at

>>> MS. You would get along great with the janitor.

>>

>> Mike B. is an ex-MS employee. But he is still a Ballmer Butt-Boy!

>>

>>>

>>> "Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

>>> news:F4847DB0-2C94-4425-A668-B058012A55FA@microsoft.com...

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:fdvv3p$7jf$1@aioe.org...

>>>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:fdvsrk$m1$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Off the top of my head, here are some of the defects:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> WPA

>>>>>>> WGA

>>>>>>> WGA/N

>>>>>>> UAC

>>>>>>> Indexing

>>>>>>> "Search"

>>>>>>

>>>>>> All the above are product features not defects - unless you can state

>>>>>> some specific areas where that feature breaks or is defective (your

>>>>>> personal opinion as to the use of WGA or WPA should exist are not

>>>>>> relevent) then these are not valid.

>>>>>

>>>>> I consider these additions to be unnecessary and cause grief to the

>>>>> end user. That, I would say, is a defect.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> No - not a defect - you person opinion as to if you like a feature or

>>>> function is not valid as defect. A defect is a feature or function

>>>> that does not perform as designed etc.

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> No Compiz-Fusion

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Sorry no idea what that means

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.google.com

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> So again more UI nonsense and thus a feature request and not a defect.

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Clunky, fixed Windows

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Look and feel of the OS is not a defect but a design decision and

>>>>>> does not impact functionality of the product.

>>>>>

>>>>> It ain't groovy and I like my computer to be groovy.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> But again NOT a defect. Just you want a fancier UI then aero. This is

>>>> just a product request and thus no basis for a class action suit or

>>>> general bitches about the product being defective.

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> IE7

>>>>>>> WMP 11

>>>>>>> DRM

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Again just features or technologies - you have not stated what the

>>>>>> defect is.

>>>>>

>>>>> DRM and IE7 is so virus prone, clunky and ugly.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Clucky/Ugly are not defects - that is user perception UI likes or

>>>> dislikes.

>>>> Attack surface opportunities are not actually defects in most cases -

>>>> but you could make some claim that they are holes/bugs in the OS that

>>>> allow malicious code execution. These defects are however addressed in

>>>> fixes so probably not a great case.

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Price is waaaaaaaaaaaay too high in Europe, i.e., over 800 US

>>>>>>> Dollars for Ultimate Retail.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Windows Ultimate Retail is about £234.04 (UK) which is appox$450 USD.

>>>>>> I see no problem with that as retail US is $319.99 (USD)

>>>>>> [source UK - http://www.ebuyer.com , US - http://www.newegg.com]

>>>>>> Of course price comparison is tricky at the moment with USD being so

>>>>>> week against other currencies e.g. $1 USD is now £0.45 UK

>>>>>

>>>>> In Spain, it costs over 800 US dollars for Windows Ultimate Retail.

>>>>> This is a rip off.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> UK - £312 - $620

>>>> Spain - £395 (http://www.elcorteingles.es) $790

>>>> US - $320

>>>>

>>>> Well there are always interesting issues with price - but it is still

>>>> not a product defect.

>>>> You can always shop online and internationally.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> No 3D Cube

>>>>>>> Only one desktop

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Neither of these are defects - they are just UI features that are not

>>>>>> in the product. This is no more a defect then one car having a sun

>>>>>> roof and the other having air conditioning.

>>>>>

>>>>> Not having more than one desktop is a defect. No 3D cube isn't groovy.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> NO again -you cannot claim a defect for a design decision and

>>>> functionality - such as multiple desktop tops and other UI features

>>>> that other operating systems or UI layers on top of other platforms may

>>>> have. Is your Pickup truck defective because it does not have a Ferrari

>>>> 530 body ?

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> The need for a high end computer to run it.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Again not a defect - Windows Vista Basic has an extremely low minimum

>>>>>> specification. And an increase in required spec is not a defect for

>>>>>> a new product with greater features and functionality over the

>>>>>> previous version. You might as well say Windows XP is defective when

>>>>>> you compare the min requirements to those of Windows 3.1.

>>>>>

>>>>> The latest Ubuntu need not be run on a high end computer. If Open

>>>>> Source can do it, why can't MS?

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> SO WHAT !!! - this is not Ubuntu or MacOS etc this is Windows - the

>>>> minimum spec is specific to this product so again you cannot call

>>>> "defect" as you cannot compare it to another OS in those terms. (My

>>>> truck runs on diesel, but my Ferrari uses high octane petrol - neither

>>>> is in defect they are both motor vehicles but obviously not the same)

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> That said, a class action suit is stupid. If one doesn't want or

>>>>>>> like Vista, there are plenty of better alternatives including XP.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Indeed.

>>>>>>

>>>> You are just not getting this - Windows Vista is not Ubuntu or MacOS or

>>>> any other operating system - (or OS plus a choice of layer UI bits and

>>>> pieces) - it is Windows Vista. It is no good stamping your feet and

>>>> saying it does not do this if it was never designed to do that or

>>>> saying it should do this because the totally different product can do

>>>> it.

>>>> This thread was about a person claim that Windows is "defective" - so

>>>> far neither you or anyone else has yet to actually make a valid case

>>>> for this.

>>

>> --

>> Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

>> http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

>>

>> "Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on free

>> speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

>> creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

>> rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

>> - Maura Corbett

>

Quote

Mark as Solution

October 3, 200717 yr

Actual harm could be the pain of going thru a total reinstall of the os over

and over. :)

"bob_c_b" <bob_c_b.2xw9az@no-mx.forums.net> wrote in message

news:bob_c_b.2xw9az@no-mx.forums.net...

>

> Don't you have to prove some actual harm to file a class action suit?

> Not just that you don't like something or you would have done it

> differently. Additionally, MS would have to stop trying to

> fix/improve/append Vista to not only compound the harm but perpetuate it

> as well. So seriously, make a point or move on.

>

> --

> bob_c_b

>

Quote

Mark as Solution

October 3, 200717 yr

you see all the jerks that come on the post and defend microsoft,i would

guess some are geting something from microsoft..they built a defective

product and knew it.but released it any way..thats wrong.it went for 31

updates just to start with and more to come.and service packs.its like buying

a new car,with a engine that does not run.and a promise to make it run some

time in the future..and it may not run right then but we will keep working on

it.in the mean time,you can take a taxie to work..give us a year or two,,we

will fix the problems..i would just like to see some big lawyer.make them

accountiable..for what they did.they stole our money.the total product was

not in the box.they said it was.but it wasnt..they screwed us,with a

unfinished product..would you let some other compant or person take your

money like this and get away with it

"Dave" wrote:

> LOL. You hit the nail on the head.

> That applies to most of the complainers. Vista is new, it's different in

> some ways. Learn how to use it.

>

> "Ronnie Vernon MVP" <rv@invalid.org> wrote in message

> news:95A852E2-2006-4F90-BB1D-C8712F08A3BB@microsoft.com...

> > Wheelman

> >

> > If you would use just a small fraction of the time you spend whining and

> > complaining, on learning how to use Vista, you problems would have been

> > solved by now.

> >

> > --

> >

> > Ronnie Vernon

> > Microsoft MVP

> > Windows Shell/User

> >

> > "wheelman" <wheelman@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> > news:D17EF881-3302-471E-BECA-09BDEE8B5BD9@microsoft.com...

> >> looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a class

> >> action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they sure do not

> >> care

> >> about us or putting out a defective product..bill gates likes to give

> >> away

> >> money to charities,that he stole from us,maybe we could take back some of

> >> the

> >> billions,he and his company cheated us out of..i know after months of

> >> this

> >> defective,vista os,i would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just

> >> going to continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get

> >> this

> >> lawsuit started...

> >

>

Quote

Mark as Solution

October 3, 200717 yr

If you are having a problem with Windows Vista, you need to

clearly define and state specifically what the problem is in order

for someone to offer any intelligent troubleshooting advice.

Read the following before posting:

How to ask a question:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

--

Carey Frisch

Microsoft MVP

Windows Shell/User

---------------------------------------------------------------

"wheelman" babbled:

looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a class

action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they sure do not care

about us or putting out a defective product..bill gates likes to give away

money to charities,that he stole from us,maybe we could take back some of the

billions,he and his company cheated us out of..i know after months of this

defective,vista os,i would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just

going to continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get this

lawsuit started...

Quote

Mark as Solution

October 3, 200717 yr

If you are having a problem with Windows Vista, you need to

clearly define and state specifically what the problem is in order

for someone to offer any intelligent troubleshooting advice.

Read the following before posting:

How to ask a question:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

--

Carey Frisch

Microsoft MVP

Windows Shell/User

---------------------------------------------------------------

"wheelman" incoherently wrote: