Frank wrote:

> Alias wrote:

>

>

>> One doesn't have to jump off a 50 story building to know that it isn't

>> a good idea.

>

> Is that the same "logic" that has led you to live a Godless life?

 

Does this mean that you think that jumping off a 50 story building is a

good idea?

> Are you suggesting that one should just blindly buy something

>> without researching it first?

>

> How stupid you sound of late.

> Frank

 

Does this mean you blindly buy things without researching them first?

 

--

Alias

To email me, remove shoes

Adam Albright wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:29:21 -0700, Frank <fb@osspan.clm> wrote:

>

>> Alias wrote:

>>

>>

>>> One doesn't have to jump off a 50 story building to know that it isn't a

>>> good idea.

>> Is that the same "logic" that has led you to live a Godless life?

>

> This is where Frank tries to pretend he's a Christian. Priceless!

>

>

 

Yeah, being as Frank breaks almost every commandment every five minutes.

 

--

Alias

To email me, remove shoes

Mike Brannigan wrote:

> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

> news:fe0f9f$nb4$5@aioe.org...

>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>

>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0d8c$irm$1@aioe.org...

>>>> Dwarf wrote:

>>>>> Not once in this entire thread have I seen ANY concrete evidence

>>>>> being provided about 'defects' in Vista. Those 'defects' that have

>>>>> been mentioned are features in the OS, most of which can be

>>>>> disabled if you do not wish to use them. Of course, you are

>>>>> entitled to your views and opinions, but remember that nobody is

>>>>> forcing you to use Vista, or indeed any Microsoft product.

>>>>

>>>> One of those 'features' of vista is the stealth updates. Where is

>>>> it documented how to turn that off?

>>>>

>>>

>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth updates"

>>> If you are referring to the updates that any machine that is using

>>> Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it is in ANY

>>> setting other then the one on the dialog which is labeled "Never

>>> Check for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update since you have

>>> you machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only

>>> sensible for any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to

>>> the machine - otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It would

>>> not, you could be in a position not getting notified of available

>>> updates due to the WU engine on your machine not working correctly.

>>>

>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>

>>

>> Where have you been, under a rock?

>>

>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9039681&intsrc=hm_list

>>

>>

>> This *stealth* update has been all over the tech web sites and Google

>> News. It was done even if you had auto updates TURNED OFF. It also

>> makes it very difficult to do a repair install with XP.

>>

>> This, indeed, is a defect and a blaring one.

>> --

>> Alias

>> To email me, remove shoes

>

> That is a Windows XP issue and not relevent to this discussion (as we

> are users of and focussed on Windows Vista here.)

> The so called stealth update to WU on Vista does not occur if you have

> the forth option selected, as I describe in my post (above).

>

>

 

Not true. It installs regardless of the setting you have set in Auto

Update and doesn't ask your permission. It does/did this to both Vista

and XP but only fuçks up XP. What will MS install next without informing

the computer owner?

 

--

Alias

To email me, remove shoes

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:u6uciwbBIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> You will have to *prove* you are correct to the >>> millions of people who

> have no problems with Vista <<< on their computer.

>

 

ROFLMFAO

Thanks - best laugh I had all day...

Wheelman

 

If you would use just a small fraction of the time you spend whining and

complaining, on learning how to use Vista, you problems would have been

solved by now.

 

--

 

Ronnie Vernon

Microsoft MVP

Windows Shell/User

 

 

"wheelman" <wheelman@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:D17EF881-3302-471E-BECA-09BDEE8B5BD9@microsoft.com...

> looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a class

> action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they sure do not

> care

> about us or putting out a defective product..bill gates likes to give away

> money to charities,that he stole from us,maybe we could take back some of

> the

> billions,he and his company cheated us out of..i know after months of this

> defective,vista os,i would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just

> going to continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get this

> lawsuit started...

"Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

news:fe0i59$3tn$1@aioe.org...

> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:fe0f9f$nb4$5@aioe.org...

>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>>

>>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0d8c$irm$1@aioe.org...

>>>>> Dwarf wrote:

>>>>>> Not once in this entire thread have I seen ANY concrete evidence

>>>>>> being provided about 'defects' in Vista. Those 'defects' that have

>>>>>> been mentioned are features in the OS, most of which can be disabled

>>>>>> if you do not wish to use them. Of course, you are entitled to your

>>>>>> views and opinions, but remember that nobody is forcing you to use

>>>>>> Vista, or indeed any Microsoft product.

>>>>>

>>>>> One of those 'features' of vista is the stealth updates. Where is it

>>>>> documented how to turn that off?

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth

>>>> updates"

>>>> If you are referring to the updates that any machine that is using

>>>> Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it is in ANY

>>>> setting other then the one on the dialog which is labeled "Never Check

>>>> for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update since you have you

>>>> machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only sensible for

>>>> any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to the machine -

>>>> otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It would not, you could be

>>>> in a position not getting notified of available updates due to the WU

>>>> engine on your machine not working correctly.

>>>>

>>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>>

>>>

>>> Where have you been, under a rock?

>>>

>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9039681&intsrc=hm_list

>>>

>>> This *stealth* update has been all over the tech web sites and Google

>>> News. It was done even if you had auto updates TURNED OFF. It also makes

>>> it very difficult to do a repair install with XP.

>>>

>>> This, indeed, is a defect and a blaring one.

>>> --

>>> Alias

>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>

>> That is a Windows XP issue and not relevent to this discussion (as we are

>> users of and focussed on Windows Vista here.)

>> The so called stealth update to WU on Vista does not occur if you have

>> the forth option selected, as I describe in my post (above).

>>

>>

>

> Not true. It installs regardless of the setting you have set in Auto

> Update and doesn't ask your permission. It does/did this to both Vista and

> XP but only fuçks up XP. What will MS install next without informing the

> computer owner?

>

> --

> Alias

> To email me, remove shoes

 

Can you site an actual site the validates your claim that the WU on VISTA

that you term stealth still happen IF you have the 4th option selected?

I am taking my lead from the Program Manger for Windows Update Nate Clinton

http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2007/09/13/how-windows-update-keeps-itself-up-to-date.aspx

 

--

 

Mike Brannigan

LOL. You hit the nail on the head.

That applies to most of the complainers. Vista is new, it's different in

some ways. Learn how to use it.

 

 

"Ronnie Vernon MVP" <rv@invalid.org> wrote in message

news:95A852E2-2006-4F90-BB1D-C8712F08A3BB@microsoft.com...

> Wheelman

>

> If you would use just a small fraction of the time you spend whining and

> complaining, on learning how to use Vista, you problems would have been

> solved by now.

>

> --

>

> Ronnie Vernon

> Microsoft MVP

> Windows Shell/User

>

>

> "wheelman" <wheelman@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> news:D17EF881-3302-471E-BECA-09BDEE8B5BD9@microsoft.com...

>> looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a class

>> action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they sure do not

>> care

>> about us or putting out a defective product..bill gates likes to give

>> away

>> money to charities,that he stole from us,maybe we could take back some of

>> the

>> billions,he and his company cheated us out of..i know after months of

>> this

>> defective,vista os,i would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just

>> going to continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get

>> this

>> lawsuit started...

>

I've been using Vista since the day it was released.

There have been a few problems. But nothing major.

But I'm also running it on 3 year old hardware, I have 4 Hard Drives,

2 TV tuners, 2 DVD Burners, SB Audigy.

 

The ones to blame are the hardware manufactures.

 

Most PC's people buy come loaded with BLOATWARE that are not needed.

But the company that makes the PC gets money to include the junk you see.

 

I just worked on a Compaq laptop that was painful to use before I removed

the crud that came installed. Who's fault is that? Microsoft? NOT!!!

 

/Rant off

 

Robert

 

 

"wheelman" <wheelman@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:D17EF881-3302-471E-BECA-09BDEE8B5BD9@microsoft.com...

> looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a class

> action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they sure do not

> care

> about us or putting out a defective product..bill gates likes to give away

> money to charities,that he stole from us,maybe we could take back some of

> the

> billions,he and his company cheated us out of..i know after months of this

> defective,vista os,i would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just

> going to continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get this

> lawsuit started...

That is VERY WELL within my capabilities.. I am not doing so

 

in order to not create too much backlash at Micrsoft and actually do them

harm...

 

thats not what I want

 

 

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:u6uciwbBIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> You will have to *prove* you are correct to the millions of people who

> have no problems with Vista on their computer.

>

> --

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Richard Urban

> Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User

> (For email, remove the obvious from my address)

>

>

> "Tibery-OS" <Tib@OS.com> wrote in message

> news:470380d4@newsgate.x-privat.org...

>> look, its not my fault that you cannot see that the world is round and

>> not flat..

>>

>> what do you want me to say... its alright to say the world is flat and

>> just hush up about the world being round?

>>

>> No Sir, that will not happen.

>>

>> I am correct and you will see that I am correct... with time.. or you

>> will insist vista is great until you are the only one left who believes

>> so!

>

I have had enough of you...

 

I wont talk any more to monkeybrains

 

 

"Frank" <fb@osspan.clm> wrote in message

news:eO7YNYdBIHA.4956@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> Tibery-OS wrote:

>> look, its not my fault that you cannot see that the world is round and

>> not flat..

>>

>> what do you want me to say... its alright to say the world is flat and

>> just hush up about the world being round?

>>

>> No Sir, that will not happen.

>>

>> I am correct and you will see that I am correct... with time.. or you

>> will insist vista is great until you are the only one left who believes

>> so!

>>

>>

>> "Universe_JDJ" <universejdj@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:1191408748.149793.158850@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>>

>>>On Oct 3, 8:28 pm, "Tibery-OS" <T...@OS.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>>You dont get it do you? Vista is so badly designed that its unfixable.

>>>>Not even with a service pack will vista be saved.

>>>>

>>>

>>>How about you stop your "Vista is evil" preaching and go back to your

>>>hole in the ground. If you don't like Vista - that's fine but don't go

>>>around posting as if your opinion is the only correct opinion in the

>>>world. You instantly dismiss the opinions of others (without any sense

>>>of reason whatsoever) and if you don't like Vista, what are you doing

>>>in this newsgroup? You aren't helping anyone, and honestly no-one

>>>would care if you left.

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>

> You're just a fukkin idiot and we all know it.

> Craw back into that cardboard space ship and don't get out again.!

> Frank

Mike Brannigan wrote:

> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

> <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0fjl$q9q$1@aioe.org...

>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>

>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0d8c$irm$1@aioe.org...

>>>> Dwarf wrote:

>>>>> Not once in this entire thread have I seen ANY concrete evidence

>>>>> being provided about 'defects' in Vista. Those 'defects' that have

>>>>> been mentioned are features in the OS, most of which can be

>>>>> disabled if you do not wish to use them. Of course, you are

>>>>> entitled to your views and opinions, but remember that nobody is

>>>>> forcing you to use Vista, or indeed any Microsoft product.

>>>>

>>>> One of those 'features' of vista is the stealth updates. Where is

>>>> it documented how to turn that off?

>>>>

>>>

>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth updates"

>>> If you are referring to the updates that any machine that is using

>>> Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it is in ANY

>>> setting other then the one on the dialog which is labeled "Never

>>> Check for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update since you have

>>> you machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only

>>> sensible for any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to

>>> the machine - otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It would

>>> not, you could be in a position not getting notified of available

>>> updates due to the WU engine on your machine not working correctly.

>>>

>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>

>>

>> Multiple sources report that those files are installed whether AU is

>> turned on or off.

>>

>> http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/wu.html

>>

> Link is to an XP issue - not relevant see my other replies on this.

>

 

What about all that other stuff I responded about in another post to

this thread? I'll quote it here for your benefit:

 

Mike Brannigan wrote:

> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

news:fdvsrk$m1$1@aioe.org...

>>

>> Off the top of my head, here are some of the defects:

>>

>> WPA

>> WGA

>> WGA/N

>> UAC

>> Indexing

>> "Search"

>

> All the above are product features not defects - unless you can state

some specific areas where that feature breaks or is defective (your

personal opinion as to the use of WGA or WPA should exist are not

relevent) then these are not valid.

 

How about MS's own admission that 1 in 5 WGA/N results are flawed? WPA

& WGA/N are buggy pieces of DRM.

>

>> No Compiz-Fusion

>

> Sorry no idea what that means

>

>> Clunky, fixed Windows

>

> Look and feel of the OS is not a defect but a design decision and

does not impact functionality of the product.

 

You are out of your mind if you don't think that eye candy would not

complicate the OS or make it run slower sometimes.

>

>> IE7

>> WMP 11

>> DRM

>

> Again just features or technologies - you have not stated what the

defect is.

 

Buggy DRM. You are not trying to say that those items listed above are

perfect and have no problems, are you?

>

>> Price is waaaaaaaaaaaay too high in Europe, i.e., over 800 US

Dollars for Ultimate Retail.

>

> Windows Ultimate Retail is about £234.04 (UK) which is appox$450 USD.

> I see no problem with that as retail US is $319.99 (USD)

> [source UK - http://www.ebuyer.com , US - http://www.newegg.com]

> Of course price comparison is tricky at the moment with USD being so

week against other currencies e.g. $1 USD is now £0.45 UK

>

>> No 3D Cube

>> Only one desktop

>

> Neither of these are defects - they are just UI features that are not

in the product. This is no more a defect then one car having a sun roof

and the other having air conditioning.

>

>> The need for a high end computer to run it.

>>

>

> Again not a defect - Windows Vista Basic has an extremely low minimum

specification. And an increase in required spec is not a defect for a

new product with greater features and functionality over the previous

version. You might as well say Windows XP is defective when you compare

the min requirements to those of Windows 3.1.

>

>> That said, a class action suit is stupid. If one doesn't want or

like Vista, there are plenty of better alternatives including XP.

>>

>

> Indeed.

 

 

--

Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

 

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

- Maura Corbett

Just letting the truth be known hurts huh ?

 

If they fix it then fine. But I don't see that's going to happen.

You think Vista is working like it should > If so, you are a few that do.

Even Microsoft says it's in need of help.

 

 

"Universe_JDJ" <universejdj@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1191408748.149793.158850@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 3, 8:28 pm, "Tibery-OS" <T...@OS.com> wrote:

>> You dont get it do you? Vista is so badly designed that its unfixable.

>> Not even with a service pack will vista be saved.

>>

>

> How about you stop your "Vista is evil" preaching and go back to your

> hole in the ground. If you don't like Vista - that's fine but don't go

> around posting as if your opinion is the only correct opinion in the

> world. You instantly dismiss the opinions of others (without any sense

> of reason whatsoever) and if you don't like Vista, what are you doing

> in this newsgroup? You aren't helping anyone, and honestly no-one

> would care if you left.

>

>

First off. Microsoft says Vista is messed up. Just look at all the patches

being released. With more on the way.

 

I've been on the phone with them on 1 problem that bugs me. Sleep and

hibernate mode do not work. And this is confirmed by MS...

 

Google Vista problems and look for yourself.

No video upon wakeup. That's my biggie. Slow transfers across 1gb

networking, Etc, Etc.

 

I would give you a full detailed account. But there is not enough time in a

day.

 

Google is your friend.

 

"john" <john@msn.com> wrote in message

news:eIWkoMcBIHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>

> "Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

> news:450EA202-90A6-416F-8BB5-C01A8374439B@microsoft.com...

>> "Kevin Weaver" <kevinkeithweaver@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

>> news:f4IMi.212$lE2.68@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...

>>> I'm going to call this number in the am.

>>>

>>> Microsoft offers a 45 day refund on all there products.

>>>

>>> Along with a up to 7.00 for return shipping. The number to call:

>>>

>>> 1-888-673-8624

>>>

>>> I bought my copy the 1st day. After the 1st few weeks the joy was gone.

>>> But I waited and waited thinking it would be fixed. After seeing the

>>> beta SP-1 I'm not at all Impressed. I know, I know. It's a beta. But

>>> Waiting for another 4 -7 months for a "It might be fixed"

>>>

>>

>> Kevin,

>>

>> Why not post what you think needs to be fixed (be precise about this and

>> provide lots of detail).

>> In many cases this these are not problems with the OS

>

> heh, but in many cases it IS

>

"Kevin Weaver" <kevinkeithweaver@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:R9RMi.38088$RX.28193@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

> Just letting the truth be known hurts huh ?

>

> If they fix it then fine. But I don't see that's going to happen.

> You think Vista is working like it should > If so, you are a few that do.

> Even Microsoft says it's in need of help.

>

>

> "Universe_JDJ" <universejdj@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:1191408748.149793.158850@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>> On Oct 3, 8:28 pm, "Tibery-OS" <T...@OS.com> wrote:

>>> You dont get it do you? Vista is so badly designed that its unfixable.

>>> Not even with a service pack will vista be saved.

>>>

>>

>> How about you stop your "Vista is evil" preaching and go back to your

>> hole in the ground. If you don't like Vista - that's fine but don't go

>> around posting as if your opinion is the only correct opinion in the

>> world. You instantly dismiss the opinions of others (without any sense

>> of reason whatsoever) and if you don't like Vista, what are you doing

>> in this newsgroup? You aren't helping anyone, and honestly no-one

>> would care if you left.

>>

>>

>

 

 

Read this:

 

[inside Vista Service Pack 1]

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_sp1_inside.asp

 

Saucy

Richard Urban wrote:

> You will have to *prove* you are correct to the millions of people who have

> no problems with Vista on their computer.

 

Heh,

they couldn't even get online to complain? <kidding> )

 

Vista uses Live Mail to replace Outlook Express and

it includes the news.microsoft.com preset with the

newsgroup selector (actual ng's selected unsure).

So..MS gave most (likely 99%) of the newest Windows

users/owners something they didn't even know how

to find let alone setup...instant contact.

 

You are going to need more patience with folks.

 

NT Canuck

'Seek and ye shall find'

So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista huh

? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at MS. You

would get along great with the janitor.

 

"Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

news:F4847DB0-2C94-4425-A668-B058012A55FA@microsoft.com...

> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

> news:fdvv3p$7jf$1@aioe.org...

>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:fdvsrk$m1$1@aioe.org...

>>>>

>>>> Off the top of my head, here are some of the defects:

>>>>

>>>> WPA

>>>> WGA

>>>> WGA/N

>>>> UAC

>>>> Indexing

>>>> "Search"

>>>

>>> All the above are product features not defects - unless you can state

>>> some specific areas where that feature breaks or is defective (your

>>> personal opinion as to the use of WGA or WPA should exist are not

>>> relevent) then these are not valid.

>>

>> I consider these additions to be unnecessary and cause grief to the end

>> user. That, I would say, is a defect.

>>

>

> No - not a defect - you person opinion as to if you like a feature or

> function is not valid as defect. A defect is a feature or function that

> does not perform as designed etc.

>

>>>

>>>> No Compiz-Fusion

>>>

>>> Sorry no idea what that means

>>

>> http://www.google.com

>>

>

> So again more UI nonsense and thus a feature request and not a defect.

>

>>>

>>>> Clunky, fixed Windows

>>>

>>> Look and feel of the OS is not a defect but a design decision and does

>>> not impact functionality of the product.

>>

>> It ain't groovy and I like my computer to be groovy.

>>

>

> But again NOT a defect. Just you want a fancier UI then aero. This is

> just a product request and thus no basis for a class action suit or

> general bitches about the product being defective.

>

>>>

>>>> IE7

>>>> WMP 11

>>>> DRM

>>>

>>> Again just features or technologies - you have not stated what the

>>> defect is.

>>

>> DRM and IE7 is so virus prone, clunky and ugly.

>>

>

> Clucky/Ugly are not defects - that is user perception UI likes or

> dislikes.

> Attack surface opportunities are not actually defects in most cases - but

> you could make some claim that they are holes/bugs in the OS that allow

> malicious code execution. These defects are however addressed in fixes so

> probably not a great case.

>

>>>

>>>> Price is waaaaaaaaaaaay too high in Europe, i.e., over 800 US Dollars

>>>> for Ultimate Retail.

>>>

>>> Windows Ultimate Retail is about £234.04 (UK) which is appox$450 USD.

>>> I see no problem with that as retail US is $319.99 (USD)

>>> [source UK - http://www.ebuyer.com , US - http://www.newegg.com]

>>> Of course price comparison is tricky at the moment with USD being so

>>> week against other currencies e.g. $1 USD is now £0.45 UK

>>

>> In Spain, it costs over 800 US dollars for Windows Ultimate Retail. This

>> is a rip off.

>>

>

> UK - £312 - $620

> Spain - £395 (http://www.elcorteingles.es) $790

> US - $320

>

> Well there are always interesting issues with price - but it is still not

> a product defect.

> You can always shop online and internationally.

>>>

>>>> No 3D Cube

>>>> Only one desktop

>>>

>>> Neither of these are defects - they are just UI features that are not in

>>> the product. This is no more a defect then one car having a sun roof

>>> and the other having air conditioning.

>>

>> Not having more than one desktop is a defect. No 3D cube isn't groovy.

>>

>

> NO again -you cannot claim a defect for a design decision and

> functionality - such as multiple desktop tops and other UI features that

> other operating systems or UI layers on top of other platforms may have.

> Is your Pickup truck defective because it does not have a Ferrari 530 body

> ?

>

>>>

>>>> The need for a high end computer to run it.

>>>>

>>>

>>> Again not a defect - Windows Vista Basic has an extremely low minimum

>>> specification. And an increase in required spec is not a defect for a

>>> new product with greater features and functionality over the previous

>>> version. You might as well say Windows XP is defective when you compare

>>> the min requirements to those of Windows 3.1.

>>

>> The latest Ubuntu need not be run on a high end computer. If Open Source

>> can do it, why can't MS?

>>

>

> SO WHAT !!! - this is not Ubuntu or MacOS etc this is Windows - the

> minimum spec is specific to this product so again you cannot call "defect"

> as you cannot compare it to another OS in those terms. (My truck runs on

> diesel, but my Ferrari uses high octane petrol - neither is in defect they

> are both motor vehicles but obviously not the same)

>

>

>>>

>>>> That said, a class action suit is stupid. If one doesn't want or like

>>>> Vista, there are plenty of better alternatives including XP.

>>>>

>>>

>>> Indeed.

>>>

>>>> --

>>>> Alias

>>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>>

>>

>>

>> --

>> Alias

>> To email me, remove shoes

>

>

> You are just not getting this - Windows Vista is not Ubuntu or MacOS or

> any other operating system - (or OS plus a choice of layer UI bits and

> pieces) - it is Windows Vista. It is no good stamping your feet and

> saying it does not do this if it was never designed to do that or saying

> it should do this because the totally different product can do it.

> This thread was about a person claim that Windows is "defective" - so far

> neither you or anyone else has yet to actually make a valid case for this.

>

> --

>

> Mike Brannigan

Kevin Weaver wrote:

> So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista

> huh ? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at

> MS. You would get along great with the janitor.

 

Mike B. is an ex-MS employee. But he is still a Ballmer Butt-Boy!

>

> "Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

> news:F4847DB0-2C94-4425-A668-B058012A55FA@microsoft.com...

>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:fdvv3p$7jf$1@aioe.org...

>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:fdvsrk$m1$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>

>>>>> Off the top of my head, here are some of the defects:

>>>>>

>>>>> WPA

>>>>> WGA

>>>>> WGA/N

>>>>> UAC

>>>>> Indexing

>>>>> "Search"

>>>>

>>>> All the above are product features not defects - unless you can

>>>> state some specific areas where that feature breaks or is defective

>>>> (your personal opinion as to the use of WGA or WPA should exist are

>>>> not relevent) then these are not valid.

>>>

>>> I consider these additions to be unnecessary and cause grief to the

>>> end user. That, I would say, is a defect.

>>>

>>

>> No - not a defect - you person opinion as to if you like a feature or

>> function is not valid as defect. A defect is a feature or function

>> that does not perform as designed etc.

>>

>>>>

>>>>> No Compiz-Fusion

>>>>

>>>> Sorry no idea what that means

>>>

>>> http://www.google.com

>>>

>>

>> So again more UI nonsense and thus a feature request and not a defect.

>>

>>>>

>>>>> Clunky, fixed Windows

>>>>

>>>> Look and feel of the OS is not a defect but a design decision and

>>>> does not impact functionality of the product.

>>>

>>> It ain't groovy and I like my computer to be groovy.

>>>

>>

>> But again NOT a defect. Just you want a fancier UI then aero. This

>> is just a product request and thus no basis for a class action suit or

>> general bitches about the product being defective.

>>

>>>>

>>>>> IE7

>>>>> WMP 11

>>>>> DRM

>>>>

>>>> Again just features or technologies - you have not stated what the

>>>> defect is.

>>>

>>> DRM and IE7 is so virus prone, clunky and ugly.

>>>

>>

>> Clucky/Ugly are not defects - that is user perception UI likes or

>> dislikes.

>> Attack surface opportunities are not actually defects in most cases -

>> but you could make some claim that they are holes/bugs in the OS that

>> allow malicious code execution. These defects are however addressed

>> in fixes so probably not a great case.

>>

>>>>

>>>>> Price is waaaaaaaaaaaay too high in Europe, i.e., over 800 US

>>>>> Dollars for Ultimate Retail.

>>>>

>>>> Windows Ultimate Retail is about £234.04 (UK) which is appox$450 USD.

>>>> I see no problem with that as retail US is $319.99 (USD)

>>>> [source UK - http://www.ebuyer.com , US - http://www.newegg.com]

>>>> Of course price comparison is tricky at the moment with USD being so

>>>> week against other currencies e.g. $1 USD is now £0.45 UK

>>>

>>> In Spain, it costs over 800 US dollars for Windows Ultimate Retail.

>>> This is a rip off.

>>>

>>

>> UK - £312 - $620

>> Spain - £395 (http://www.elcorteingles.es) $790

>> US - $320

>>

>> Well there are always interesting issues with price - but it is still

>> not a product defect.

>> You can always shop online and internationally.

>>>>

>>>>> No 3D Cube

>>>>> Only one desktop

>>>>

>>>> Neither of these are defects - they are just UI features that are

>>>> not in the product. This is no more a defect then one car having a

>>>> sun roof and the other having air conditioning.

>>>

>>> Not having more than one desktop is a defect. No 3D cube isn't groovy.

>>>

>>

>> NO again -you cannot claim a defect for a design decision and

>> functionality - such as multiple desktop tops and other UI features

>> that other operating systems or UI layers on top of other platforms

>> may have. Is your Pickup truck defective because it does not have a

>> Ferrari 530 body ?

>>

>>>>

>>>>> The need for a high end computer to run it.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Again not a defect - Windows Vista Basic has an extremely low

>>>> minimum specification. And an increase in required spec is not a

>>>> defect for a new product with greater features and functionality

>>>> over the previous version. You might as well say Windows XP is

>>>> defective when you compare the min requirements to those of Windows

>>>> 3.1.

>>>

>>> The latest Ubuntu need not be run on a high end computer. If Open

>>> Source can do it, why can't MS?

>>>

>>

>> SO WHAT !!! - this is not Ubuntu or MacOS etc this is Windows - the

>> minimum spec is specific to this product so again you cannot call

>> "defect" as you cannot compare it to another OS in those terms. (My

>> truck runs on diesel, but my Ferrari uses high octane petrol - neither

>> is in defect they are both motor vehicles but obviously not the same)

>>

>>

>>>>

>>>>> That said, a class action suit is stupid. If one doesn't want or

>>>>> like Vista, there are plenty of better alternatives including XP.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Indeed.

>>>>

>> You are just not getting this - Windows Vista is not Ubuntu or MacOS

>> or any other operating system - (or OS plus a choice of layer UI bits

>> and pieces) - it is Windows Vista. It is no good stamping your feet

>> and saying it does not do this if it was never designed to do that or

>> saying it should do this because the totally different product can do it.

>> This thread was about a person claim that Windows is "defective" - so

>> far neither you or anyone else has yet to actually make a valid case

>> for this.

 

 

--

Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

 

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on

free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

- Maura Corbett

wheelman wrote:

> looks like there would be some lawyer some where,that would start a

> class action lawsuit for us.maybe thats what microsoft needs..they

> sure do not care about us or putting out a defective product..bill

> gates likes to give away money to charities,that he stole from

> us,maybe we could take back some of the billions,he and his company

> cheated us out of..i know after months of this defective,vista os,i

> would sign up..if they are not stoped ,they are just going to

> continue to make and sell more defective,,products..lets get this

> lawsuit started...

 

Read the contract you agreed to follow (EULA)

 

"Microsoft makes no warranties as to fitness of merchantability or

purpose..."

 

"End user agrees not to sue but to submit to binding arbitration (with a

division of Microsoft Arbitration Services)..."

Alias wrote:

>>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth

>>>> updates" If you are referring to the updates that any machine that

>>>> is using Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it

>>>> is in ANY setting other then the one on the dialog which is

>>>> labeled "Never Check for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update

>>>> since you have

>>>> you machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only

>>>> sensible for any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to

>>>> the machine - otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It would

>>>> not, you could be in a position not getting notified of available

>>>> updates due to the WU engine on your machine not working correctly.

>>>>

>>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>>

>>>

>>> Where have you been, under a rock?

>>>

>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9039681&intsrc=hm_list

>>>

>>>

>>> This *stealth* update has been all over the tech web sites and

>>> Google News. It was done even if you had auto updates TURNED OFF.

>>> It also makes it very difficult to do a repair install with XP.

>>>

>>> This, indeed, is a defect and a blaring one.

>>> --

>>> Alias

>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>

>> That is a Windows XP issue and not relevent to this discussion (as we

>> are users of and focussed on Windows Vista here.)

>> The so called stealth update to WU on Vista does not occur if you

>> have the forth option selected, as I describe in my post (above).

>>

>>

>

> Not true. It installs regardless of the setting you have set in Auto

> Update and doesn't ask your permission. It does/did this to both Vista

> and XP but only fuçks up XP. What will MS install next without

> informing the computer owner?

 

It's Microsoft's software - they can do anything they damn well please with

their own property.

 

Well, almost anything.

Mike Brannigan wrote:

> Can you site an actual site the validates your claim that the WU on VISTA

> that you term stealth still happen IF you have the 4th option selected?

 

Hi Mike,

 

I think you're caught defending bad management decisions,

4 options is far too many for the typical consumer.

They purchase computers (and Vista) to make their

work and playtime easier and more enjoyable, this

does not translate well into micro-management.

 

They bought (or had pre-installed) the Vista OS

and did so with a blind trust in Microsoft, now

some of them feel betrayed, you'll have to win

them back and you won't do it unless you roll

up your sleeves and at least repair some items

that should never have happened in a 3rd world

OS let alone the mega giant MS.

 

These people wouldn't even be here to complain

if they didn't care, they are not your enemy.

 

NT Canuck

'Seek and ye shall find'

Mike Brannigan wrote:

> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

> news:fe0i59$3tn$1@aioe.org...

>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:fe0f9f$nb4$5@aioe.org...

>>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> "The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina

>>>>> DiBoy'" <none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0d8c$irm$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>> Dwarf wrote:

>>>>>>> Not once in this entire thread have I seen ANY concrete evidence

>>>>>>> being provided about 'defects' in Vista. Those 'defects' that

>>>>>>> have been mentioned are features in the OS, most of which can be

>>>>>>> disabled if you do not wish to use them. Of course, you are

>>>>>>> entitled to your views and opinions, but remember that nobody is

>>>>>>> forcing you to use Vista, or indeed any Microsoft product.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> One of those 'features' of vista is the stealth updates. Where is

>>>>>> it documented how to turn that off?

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Just so we can kill this one now - what do you mean by "stealth

>>>>> updates"

>>>>> If you are referring to the updates that any machine that is using

>>>>> Windows Update receive to the update engine - that is it is in ANY

>>>>> setting other then the one on the dialog which is labeled "Never

>>>>> Check for Updates" - this is hardly a stealth update since you have

>>>>> you machine configured to contact WU and therefore it is only

>>>>> sensible for any WU updates to the client side engine be pushed to

>>>>> the machine - otherwise how do you think it would work ?? It would

>>>>> not, you could be in a position not getting notified of available

>>>>> updates due to the WU engine on your machine not working correctly.

>>>>>

>>>>> So with that aside - what "stealth updates"?

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Where have you been, under a rock?

>>>>

>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9039681&intsrc=hm_list

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> This *stealth* update has been all over the tech web sites and

>>>> Google News. It was done even if you had auto updates TURNED OFF. It

>>>> also makes it very difficult to do a repair install with XP.

>>>>

>>>> This, indeed, is a defect and a blaring one.

>>>> --

>>>> Alias

>>>> To email me, remove shoes

>>>

>>> That is a Windows XP issue and not relevent to this discussion (as we

>>> are users of and focussed on Windows Vista here.)

>>> The so called stealth update to WU on Vista does not occur if you

>>> have the forth option selected, as I describe in my post (above).

>>>

>>>

>>

>> Not true. It installs regardless of the setting you have set in Auto

>> Update and doesn't ask your permission. It does/did this to both Vista

>> and XP but only fuçks up XP. What will MS install next without

>> informing the computer owner?

>>

>> --

>> Alias

>> To email me, remove shoes

>

> Can you site an actual site the validates your claim that the WU on

> VISTA that you term stealth still happen IF you have the 4th option

> selected?

> I am taking my lead from the Program Manger for Windows Update Nate Clinton

> http://blogs.technet.com/mu/archive/2007/09/13/how-windows-update-keeps-itself-up-to-date.aspx

>

>

Mike, are the following are the 4 options you are referring to? If so,

the update took place regardless of what option was selected.

- Install update automatically (recommended)

- Download updates but let me choose whether to install them

- Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them

- Never check for updates (not recommended)

 

You may have missed the post in this ng from Kerry Brown about the issue:

"Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message

news:286728FE-0266-46B4-9FBA-1B04F62FBC5C@microsoft.com...

After reading the many posts in this newsgroup, blogs from Microsoft,

blogs from Microsoft critics and fans, magazine articles, I have come to

the conclusion that Microsoft has overstepped the boundary of trust

here. I know they legally have the right to update files with out notice

because of the EULA. This does not excuse what they have done. They have

an option to "Never check for updates". To me this includes updates for

Windows Update. If it doesn't this should be stated clearly on that

screen. The only thing that will make this clear to them is a public

outcry. Please add your comments here for or against. It may not do any

good but it will help to keep the issue in the public eye. Please don't

turn this into an anti-Microsoft thread. Keep comments about the issue

at hand and why you think it is right or wrong. Flaming Microsoft will

get the issue ignored. Reasoned debate and comments are needed.

 

--

Kerry Brown

Microsoft MVP - Shell/User

http://www.vistahelp.ca

 

 

--

norm

> So please do post back with your complete detailed list of points.

 

Hear, hear! Let's see a properly constructed argument. Anything else is

just ranting, and stands as much chance in court as a snowball in hell...

 

SteveT

Don't you have to prove some actual harm to file a class action suit?

Not just that you don't like something or you would have done it

differently. Additionally, MS would have to stop trying to

fix/improve/append Vista to not only compound the harm but perpetuate it

as well. So seriously, make a point or move on.

 

 

--

bob_c_b

"The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

<none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0oet$njs$1@aioe.org...

> Kevin Weaver wrote:

>> So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista

>> huh ? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at MS.

>> You would get along great with the janitor.

>

> Mike B. is an ex-MS employee. But he is still a Ballmer Butt-Boy!

>

 

So now we see your last resort when your ability to engage in a professional

discussion fails you, you just resort to petty childish name calling.

--

Mike Brannigan

 

"The poster formerly known as 'The Poster Formerly Known as Nina DiBoy'"

<none@none.not> wrote in message news:fe0oet$njs$1@aioe.org...

> Kevin Weaver wrote:

>> So with what your saying is, You have never seen any problem with vista

>> huh ? Your one in a million. You should take a high place position at MS.

>> You would get along great with the janitor.

>

> Mike B. is an ex-MS employee. But he is still a Ballmer Butt-Boy!

>

>>

>> "Mike Brannigan" <Mike.Brannigan@localhost> wrote in message

>> news:F4847DB0-2C94-4425-A668-B058012A55FA@microsoft.com...

>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:fdvv3p$7jf$1@aioe.org...

>>>> Mike Brannigan wrote:

>>>>> "Alias" <iamalias@shoesgmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:fdvsrk$m1$1@aioe.org...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Off the top of my head, here are some of the defects:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> WPA

>>>>>> WGA

>>>>>> WGA/N

>>>>>> UAC

>>>>>> Indexing

>>>>>> "Search"

>>>>>

>>>>> All the above are product features not defects - unless you can state

>>>>> some specific areas where that feature breaks or is defective (your

>>>>> personal opinion as to the use of WGA or WPA should exist are not

>>>>> relevent) then these are not valid.

>>>>

>>>> I consider these additions to be unnecessary and cause grief to the end

>>>> user. That, I would say, is a defect.

>>>>

>>>

>>> No - not a defect - you person opinion as to if you like a feature or

>>> function is not valid as defect. A defect is a feature or function that

>>> does not perform as designed etc.

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> No Compiz-Fusion

>>>>>

>>>>> Sorry no idea what that means

>>>>

>>>> http://www.google.com

>>>>

>>>

>>> So again more UI nonsense and thus a feature request and not a defect.

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> Clunky, fixed Windows

>>>>>

>>>>> Look and feel of the OS is not a defect but a design decision and does

>>>>> not impact functionality of the product.

>>>>

>>>> It ain't groovy and I like my computer to be groovy.

>>>>

>>>

>>> But again NOT a defect. Just you want a fancier UI then aero. This is

>>> just a product request and thus no basis for a class action suit or

>>> general bitches about the product being defective.

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> IE7

>>>>>> WMP 11

>>>>>> DRM

>>>>>

>>>>> Again just features or technologies - you have not stated what the

>>>>> defect is.

>>>>

>>>> DRM and IE7 is so virus prone, clunky and ugly.

>>>>

>>>

>>> Clucky/Ugly are not defects - that is user perception UI likes or

>>> dislikes.

>>> Attack surface opportunities are not actually defects in most cases -

>>> but you could make some claim that they are holes/bugs in the OS that

>>> allow malicious code execution. These defects are however addressed in

>>> fixes so probably not a great case.

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> Price is waaaaaaaaaaaay too high in Europe, i.e., over 800 US Dollars

>>>>>> for Ultimate Retail.

>>>>>

>>>>> Windows Ultimate Retail is about £234.04 (UK) which is appox$450 USD.

>>>>> I see no problem with that as retail US is $319.99 (USD)

>>>>> [source UK - http://www.ebuyer.com , US - http://www.newegg.com]

>>>>> Of course price comparison is tricky at the moment with USD being so

>>>>> week against other currencies e.g. $1 USD is now £0.45 UK

>>>>

>>>> In Spain, it costs over 800 US dollars for Windows Ultimate Retail.

>>>> This is a rip off.

>>>>

>>>

>>> UK - £312 - $620

>>> Spain - £395 (http://www.elcorteingles.es) $790

>>> US - $320

>>>

>>> Well there are always interesting issues with price - but it is still

>>> not a product defect.

>>> You can always shop online and internationally.

>>>>>

>>>>>> No 3D Cube

>>>>>> Only one desktop

>>>>>

>>>>> Neither of these are defects - they are just UI features that are not

>>>>> in the product. This is no more a defect then one car having a sun

>>>>> roof and the other having air conditioning.

>>>>

>>>> Not having more than one desktop is a defect. No 3D cube isn't groovy.

>>>>

>>>

>>> NO again -you cannot claim a defect for a design decision and

>>> functionality - such as multiple desktop tops and other UI features that

>>> other operating systems or UI layers on top of other platforms may have.

>>> Is your Pickup truck defective because it does not have a Ferrari 530

>>> body ?

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> The need for a high end computer to run it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Again not a defect - Windows Vista Basic has an extremely low minimum

>>>>> specification. And an increase in required spec is not a defect for a

>>>>> new product with greater features and functionality over the previous

>>>>> version. You might as well say Windows XP is defective when you

>>>>> compare the min requirements to those of Windows 3.1.

>>>>

>>>> The latest Ubuntu need not be run on a high end computer. If Open

>>>> Source can do it, why can't MS?

>>>>

>>>

>>> SO WHAT !!! - this is not Ubuntu or MacOS etc this is Windows - the

>>> minimum spec is specific to this product so again you cannot call

>>> "defect" as you cannot compare it to another OS in those terms. (My

>>> truck runs on diesel, but my Ferrari uses high octane petrol - neither

>>> is in defect they are both motor vehicles but obviously not the same)

>>>

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> That said, a class action suit is stupid. If one doesn't want or like

>>>>>> Vista, there are plenty of better alternatives including XP.

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Indeed.

>>>>>

>>> You are just not getting this - Windows Vista is not Ubuntu or MacOS or

>>> any other operating system - (or OS plus a choice of layer UI bits and

>>> pieces) - it is Windows Vista. It is no good stamping your feet and

>>> saying it does not do this if it was never designed to do that or saying

>>> it should do this because the totally different product can do it.

>>> This thread was about a person claim that Windows is "defective" - so

>>> far neither you or anyone else has yet to actually make a valid case for

>>> this.

>

>

> --

> Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

> http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

>

> "Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on free

> speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the

> creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer

> rights in the digital age are not frivolous."

> - Maura Corbett

So ? We all know It's on the way. Question Is *WHEN* ??

 

Not bad, Going to take them what a year and a half after it was shipped ?

That should tell you something right there. But in the mean time, we the

users pay the price.

 

I've Installed the beta. And thank god it's a beta.

And removed it less then a hour later.

 

Sleep still does not work.

 

"Saucy" <34ckw5d78@d6567.t72231h456.network> wrote in message

news:%23lTSL1eBIHA.2268@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> "Kevin Weaver" <kevinkeithweaver@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

> news:R9RMi.38088$RX.28193@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...

>> Just letting the truth be known hurts huh ?

>>

>> If they fix it then fine. But I don't see that's going to happen.

>> You think Vista is working like it should > If so, you are a few that do.

>> Even Microsoft says it's in need of help.

>>

>>

>> "Universe_JDJ" <universejdj@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:1191408748.149793.158850@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

>>> On Oct 3, 8:28 pm, "Tibery-OS" <T...@OS.com> wrote:

>>>> You dont get it do you? Vista is so badly designed that its unfixable.

>>>> Not even with a service pack will vista be saved.

>>>>

>>>

>>> How about you stop your "Vista is evil" preaching and go back to your

>>> hole in the ground. If you don't like Vista - that's fine but don't go

>>> around posting as if your opinion is the only correct opinion in the

>>> world. You instantly dismiss the opinions of others (without any sense

>>> of reason whatsoever) and if you don't like Vista, what are you doing

>>> in this newsgroup? You aren't helping anyone, and honestly no-one

>>> would care if you left.

>>>

>>>

>>

>

>

> Read this:

>

> [inside Vista Service Pack 1]

> http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_sp1_inside.asp

>

> Saucy