In article <Du0Yi.18975$lD6.8711@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,

unknown@unknown.kom says...

> Where have you seen it hundreds of times? Give facts not emotions.

 

I've been working with/on computers for almost 30 years, PM has been a

problem for at least 10 of those years.

 

I'm stating facts, I don't state emotions.

 

--

 

Leythos

- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Spoof!

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message

news:MPG.219aa2459375a6dc9897e8@adfree.usenet.com...

> In article <Du0Yi.18975$lD6.8711@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,

> unknown@unknown.kom says...

>> Where have you seen it hundreds of times? Give facts not emotions.

>

> I've been working with/on computers for almost 30 years, PM has been a

> problem for at least 10 of those years.

>

> I'm stating facts, I don't state emotions.

>

> --

>

> Leythos

> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

In article <CK1Yi.233762$lV4.106173@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,

Androcles <Engineer@hogwarts.physics> wrote:

> : Anyway, the voltage changing is done by a [snip transformer]

> switching regulator.

> http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f5.pdf

 

In computers - yes, the PSU is always switch mode but that is not the case

with all equipment.

 

Particularly in sensitive equipment, where switchers would generate too

much crap and interfere with equipment operation linears are still used.

 

--

Stuart Winsor

 

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

 

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area

See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

On 5 nov, 15:23, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Is there some such concept as "residual electricity"???

>

> There was a problem with a computer at work...it's a new Dell running

> WinXP Pro...everything's fine, I go to lunch and come back to a blank

> screen that won't wake up from power-save/sleep mode!! I do the

> obvious and check connections, making sure they're secure and

> whatnot. I turn off the computer and turn it back on a few times, to

> no effect!

>

> Tech Support suspects some kind of a "power management" issue --

> whatever that is -- and suggests that I leave the system off for a few

> minutes, literally, to let things "clear"...whatever that means. Sure

> enough, however: it works!

>

> So now I'm here asking, because Tech hasn't the time to puzzle over it

> with me, WHAT HAPPENED??? And how come shutting off power for a few

> seconds isn't comparable to leaving power off for a few

> minutes????????????

>

> TIA!

 

I suppose you have some model of Dell flat screen with this computer ?

 

If so, it may not be the computer at fault but the monitor.

 

I ran into similar problem and also thought that the computer was

bugged. Actually, the computer booted fine, but the monitor

was at fault.

 

If you haven't resolved it yet, here is how it was resolved for me.

 

There was need to completely disconnect the flat screen

power cord from the wall socket (easier there than at the

flat screen end) and wait a while.

 

The flat screen micro then rebooted correctly upon reconnection

and repowering.

 

My interpretation was that there is some builtin flash memory

chip into the monitor circuit that keeps some settings that

had become corrupt. The control pin of that chip no

doubt remains powered even if you turn the monitor off

without completely disconnecting the power cord.

 

André MIchaud

In article <mW4Yi.63538$Um6.51958@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,

unknown@unknown.kom says...

> Spoof!

 

Is there a reason that you've taken to spouting crap instead of being

able to disprove real world experience?

 

PM has long been problematic on cheap/badly designed motherboards -

prove me wrong instead of being a child/troll.

 

--

 

Leythos

- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

You're the one that made the ridiculous statement. Then you say that's your

experience.

My experience is opposite.

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message

news:MPG.219aad327c5596f99897e9@adfree.usenet.com...

> In article <mW4Yi.63538$Um6.51958@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,

> unknown@unknown.kom says...

>> Spoof!

>

> Is there a reason that you've taken to spouting crap instead of being

> able to disprove real world experience?

>

> PM has long been problematic on cheap/badly designed motherboards -

> prove me wrong instead of being a child/troll.

>

> --

>

> Leythos

> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

In article <bw5Yi.63541$Um6.55709@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,

unknown@unknown.kom says...

> You're the one that made the ridiculous statement. Then you say that's your

> experience.

> My experience is opposite.

 

And your experience doesn't invalidate what I've said.

 

My experience does invalidate your experience as being the definitive

answer. While you may not have the experience for what ever reason, I do

and I've seen it happen on cheap/crappy motherboards and even good ones

that had bad firmware, hundreds of times.

 

You might learn something from those of us that have been around for a

while if you could take your head out of your a$$.

 

--

 

Leythos

- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

More emotional nonsense. What was the name of the manufacturer of the

boards? What computer manufacturer?

You seen hundreds! What problem did they cause? What was the design

deficiency? What was the technology that failed?

Hundreds of times????? Give us the data.

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message

news:MPG.219ab81ed154a0099897ea@adfree.usenet.com...

> In article <bw5Yi.63541$Um6.55709@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,

> unknown@unknown.kom says...

>> You're the one that made the ridiculous statement. Then you say that's

>> your

>> experience.

>> My experience is opposite.

>

> And your experience doesn't invalidate what I've said.

>

> My experience does invalidate your experience as being the definitive

> answer. While you may not have the experience for what ever reason, I do

> and I've seen it happen on cheap/crappy motherboards and even good ones

> that had bad firmware, hundreds of times.

>

> You might learn something from those of us that have been around for a

> while if you could take your head out of your a$$.

>

> --

>

> Leythos

> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

"Stuart" <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message

news:4f3daf39e2SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com...

: In article <CK1Yi.233762$lV4.106173@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,

: Androcles <Engineer@hogwarts.physics> wrote:

: > : Anyway, the voltage changing is done by a [snip transformer]

: > switching regulator.

: > http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f5.pdf

:

: In computers - yes, the PSU is always switch mode but that is not the case

: with all equipment.

 

It's a computer we are talking about. We've had transformers

and bridge diodes since the dark ages but some people have

never evolved from their train set with its transformer, selenium

rectifier and rheostat.

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Samples/034.10/s12s.JPG

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51631125/Sliding_Rheostat_Specification.jpg

I was designing pulse width modulation controllers over 35 years ago,

the triac is older than that.

In article <nf6Yi.3025$yV6.1328@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,

unknown@unknown.kom says...

> More emotional nonsense.

 

I don't see any reason to be trolled by you.

 

--

 

Leythos

- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a

drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

On Nov 7, 5:14 am, "Unknown" <unkn...@unknown.kom> wrote:

> No he's not. Capacitors do NOT smooth current. They reduce or eliminate

> voltage fluctuations.<nottooo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

 

Oh yes they do don't they :P In fact it's pretty much the opposite of

smoothing current.

 

Well that's true of bypass capacitors that're used near chips. But I

think it's fair to say the input capacitors in a power supply do

smooth current by removing mains voltage fluctuations, and thereby

preventing current fluctuations in the downstream load. And in fact

those are the ones that can hold their charge after switching off.

In article <1194396267.441582.89170@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

nottoooily@hotmail.com says...

> On Nov 7, 5:14 am, "Unknown" <unkn...@unknown.kom> wrote:

> > No he's not. Capacitors do NOT smooth current. They reduce or eliminate

> > voltage fluctuations.<nottooo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>

> Oh yes they do don't they :P In fact it's pretty much the opposite of

> smoothing current.

>

> Well that's true of bypass capacitors that're used near chips. But I

> think it's fair to say the input capacitors in a power supply do

> smooth current by removing mains voltage fluctuations, and thereby

> preventing current fluctuations in the downstream load. And in fact

> those are the ones that can hold their charge after switching off.

 

They don't "smooth" current at all. They "smooth" voltage by

storing/supplying current. They don't prevent current fluctuations

at all, indeed cause them in the attempt to maintain voltage.

Voltage across a capacitor can't change instantaneously, but the

current through one certainly can.

 

 

--

Keith

In article <X07Yi.58352$7_4.25898@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,

Androcles <Engineer@hogwarts.physics> wrote:

> It's a computer we are talking about.

 

May I just re-quote to you the text to which I replied?

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

: A power supply in any electronic gizmo changes 110V (usually) AC to

: one or more voltages of DC, generally something like 5V - 20V, I

: think.

:

: Anyway, the voltage changing is done by a [snip transformer]

switching regulator.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Please note the word "any" in the statement:

 

"any electronic gizmo"

 

as used by Tim Slattery

 

Yes I've ben around long enough to know about Selenium rectifiers, Valve

rectifiers and mercury Arc rectifiers too!

 

Did you know Steel Tank mercury arc rectifiers used triggering to control

the output voltage just like an SCR or Triac?

 

;-)

 

--

Stuart Winsor

 

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

 

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area

See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

"Stuart" <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message

news:4f3ded0c65SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com...

: In article <X07Yi.58352$7_4.25898@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,

: Androcles <Engineer@hogwarts.physics> wrote:

: > It's a computer we are talking about.

:

: May I just re-quote to you the text to which I replied?

 

No you may not, the record is plain enough.

If you quote part then quote all.

 

It's a computer we are talking about. We've had transformers

and bridge diodes since the dark ages but some people have

never evolved from their train set with its transformer, selenium

rectifier and rheostat.

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Samples/034.10/s12s.JPG

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51631125/Sliding_Rheostat_Specification.jpg

I was designing pulse width modulation controllers over 35 years ago,

the triac is older than that.

The current on the output of a supply can vary by a considerable amount by

turning

devices attached to it on or off. Capacitors do not smooth current.

 

toooily@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1194396267.441582.89170@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> On Nov 7, 5:14 am, "Unknown" <unkn...@unknown.kom> wrote:

>> No he's not. Capacitors do NOT smooth current. They reduce or eliminate

>> voltage fluctuations.<nottooo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>

> Oh yes they do don't they :P In fact it's pretty much the opposite of

> smoothing current.

>

> Well that's true of bypass capacitors that're used near chips. But I

> think it's fair to say the input capacitors in a power supply do

> smooth current by removing mains voltage fluctuations, and thereby

> preventing current fluctuations in the downstream load. And in fact

> those are the ones that can hold their charge after switching off.

>

>

Androcles wrote:

> "John" <zen@zen.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:5p9pm1Fpn9a7U1@mid.individual.net...

> : Gordon wrote:

> : > <jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message

> : > news:p4b405-rog.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

> : >> Capacitors.

> : >>

> : >

> : >

> : > capacitors usually discharge when the current is switched off - their

> main

> : > job is to smooth current, not to store volts....

> : >

> : >

> :

> : What utter crap.

> :

> : John.

>

> Not only is it utter crap, the arrogant little prick gets bent out of

> shape when you call him on it.

 

Thus the "arrogant" part of his moniker. :)

"Tony Harding" <ToHard@nowhere.org> wrote in message

news:9T7Zi.236$0w2.8@newsfe08.lga...

: Androcles wrote:

: > "John" <zen@zen.co.uk> wrote in message

: > news:5p9pm1Fpn9a7U1@mid.individual.net...

: > : Gordon wrote:

: > : > <jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message

: > : > news:p4b405-rog.ln1@mail.specsol.com...

: > : >> Capacitors.

: > : >>

: > : >

: > : >

: > : > capacitors usually discharge when the current is switched off -

their

: > main

: > : > job is to smooth current, not to store volts....

: > : >

: > : >

: > :

: > : What utter crap.

: > :

: > : John.

: >

: > Not only is it utter crap, the arrogant little prick gets bent out of

: > shape when you call him on it.

:

: Thus the "arrogant" part of his moniker. :)

 

Yes... I have no objection to someone being arrogant when

they know what they talking about, but all to often arrogance

and ignorance go hand in glove.

 

 

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool. Shun him.

He who knows not and knows that he knows not, he is a student. Teach him.

He who knows and knows not that he knows, he is a tool. Use him.

He who knows and knows that he knows, he is a sage. Follow him.

 

 

#define little_prick 1/sqrt[(arrogance^2)+(ignorance^2)]

 

(Androcles's inverse Pythagorean law)

Stuart wrote:

>

> Yes I've ben around long enough to know about Selenium rectifiers, Valve

> rectifiers and mercury Arc rectifiers too!

 

 

How about copper rectifiers, and electrolytic rectifiers?

 

 

--

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to

prove it.

Member of DAV #85.

 

Michael A. Terrell

Central Florida

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1194294217.473003.148980@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

>

> Is there some such concept as "residual electricity"???

>

> There was a problem with a computer at work...it's a new Dell running

> WinXP Pro...everything's fine, I go to lunch and come back to a blank

> screen that won't wake up from power-save/sleep mode!! I do the

> obvious and check connections, making sure they're secure and

> whatnot. I turn off the computer and turn it back on a few times, to

> no effect!

>

> Tech Support suspects some kind of a "power management" issue --

> whatever that is -- and suggests that I leave the system off for a few

> minutes, literally, to let things "clear"...whatever that means. Sure

> enough, however: it works!

>

> So now I'm here asking, because Tech hasn't the time to puzzle over it

> with me, WHAT HAPPENED??? And how come shutting off power for a few

> seconds isn't comparable to leaving power off for a few

> minutes????????????

 

Regardless of all the theories involving capacitors storing charge, the

power supply is shot (and it is most likely a faulty capacitor that is

responsible - that is one that is failing to store charge until it cools off

a bit).

"M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message

news:47399558$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

:

: "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message

: news:1194294217.473003.148980@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

: >

: > Is there some such concept as "residual electricity"???

: >

: > There was a problem with a computer at work...it's a new Dell running

: > WinXP Pro...everything's fine, I go to lunch and come back to a blank

: > screen that won't wake up from power-save/sleep mode!! I do the

: > obvious and check connections, making sure they're secure and

: > whatnot. I turn off the computer and turn it back on a few times, to

: > no effect!

: >

: > Tech Support suspects some kind of a "power management" issue --

: > whatever that is -- and suggests that I leave the system off for a few

: > minutes, literally, to let things "clear"...whatever that means. Sure

: > enough, however: it works!

: >

: > So now I'm here asking, because Tech hasn't the time to puzzle over it

: > with me, WHAT HAPPENED??? And how come shutting off power for a few

: > seconds isn't comparable to leaving power off for a few

: > minutes????????????

:

: Regardless of all the theories involving capacitors storing charge, the

: power supply is shot (and it is most likely a faulty capacitor that is

: responsible - that is one that is failing to store charge until it cools

off

: a bit).

 

Then when you swap out the PSU it turns out to be a problem

on the motherboard - Saudde's law.

Unless you changed out the motherboard first, in which case it was

the PSU - Murphy's law. And really, Tech doesn't have the time

to analyse it poking around with a voltmeter and staring at the

schematic when it only cost a few bucks to replace the module.

Gone are the days when you replaced a burnt out resistor

or an exploded capacitor in a TV, it's cheaper to buy a new TV

now.

As for computers, I've got three spare ... nothing wrong with them,

they are just too slow to bother with and who needs a 1 Gig

hard drive when you can get 320 Gig or whatever?

What type of capacitor has to cool off before it accepts a charge?

"M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message

news:47399558$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

>

> "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:1194294217.473003.148980@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> Is there some such concept as "residual electricity"???

>>

>> There was a problem with a computer at work...it's a new Dell running

>> WinXP Pro...everything's fine, I go to lunch and come back to a blank

>> screen that won't wake up from power-save/sleep mode!! I do the

>> obvious and check connections, making sure they're secure and

>> whatnot. I turn off the computer and turn it back on a few times, to

>> no effect!

>>

>> Tech Support suspects some kind of a "power management" issue --

>> whatever that is -- and suggests that I leave the system off for a few

>> minutes, literally, to let things "clear"...whatever that means. Sure

>> enough, however: it works!

>>

>> So now I'm here asking, because Tech hasn't the time to puzzle over it

>> with me, WHAT HAPPENED??? And how come shutting off power for a few

>> seconds isn't comparable to leaving power off for a few

>> minutes????????????

>

> Regardless of all the theories involving capacitors storing charge, the

> power supply is shot (and it is most likely a faulty capacitor that is

> responsible - that is one that is failing to store charge until it cools

> off a bit).

>

"Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message

news:SVj_i.68355$YL5.45228@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

> What type of capacitor has to cool off before it accepts a charge?

 

A: A faulty one.

 

It is well a known problem particularly among certain types of electrolytic

capacitors. The usual problem is that the EPR (Effective parallel

resistance) of the capacitor falls alarmingly as it warms up rendering it

ineffective as a capacitor.

How do you dream up all these ridiculous things?

"M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message

news:473aab1e$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

>

> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message

> news:SVj_i.68355$YL5.45228@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

>> What type of capacitor has to cool off before it accepts a charge?

>

> A: A faulty one.

>

> It is well a known problem particularly among certain types of

> electrolytic capacitors. The usual problem is that the EPR (Effective

> parallel resistance) of the capacitor falls alarmingly as it warms up

> rendering it ineffective as a capacitor.

>

>

>

Sounds like a short circuit to me. Perhaps he's connecting

them with the wrong polarity of the "certain type".

 

"Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message

news:nRE_i.18302$4V6.9037@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...

: How do you dream up all these ridiculous things?

: "M.I.5¾" <no.one@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message

: news:473aab1e$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

: >

: > "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message

: > news:SVj_i.68355$YL5.45228@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

: >> What type of capacitor has to cool off before it accepts a charge?

: >

: > A: A faulty one.

: >

: > It is well a known problem particularly among certain types of

: > electrolytic capacitors. The usual problem is that the EPR (Effective

: > parallel resistance) of the capacitor falls alarmingly as it warms up

: > rendering it ineffective as a capacitor.

: >

: >

: >

:

:

On Nov 14, 10:52 am, "Unknown" <unkn...@unknown.kom> wrote:

> How do you dream up all these ridiculous things?"M.I.5¾" <no....@no.where.NO_SPAM.co.uk> wrote in message

>

> news:473aab1e$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

>

>

>

> > "Unknown" <unkn...@unknown.kom> wrote in message

> >news:SVj_i.68355$YL5.45228@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

> >> What type of capacitor has to cool off before it accepts a charge?

>

> > A: A faulty one.

>

> > It is well a known problem particularly among certain types of

> > electrolytic capacitors. The usual problem is that the EPR (Effective

> > parallel resistance) of the capacitor falls alarmingly as it warms up

> > rendering it ineffective as a capacitor.

 

Two charts of electrolytic capacitor failure modes. Check out

Table 2 here:

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ABA0000/ABA0000TE4.pdf

 

Operating at high temperature is shown to cause failure

by increase in leakage current.

 

or Figure 2.10 here:

http://etd.gatech.edu/theses/available/etd-04082007-083102/unrestricted/imam_afroz_m_200705_phd.pdf

 

Operating at high temperature is shown to cause failure

by loss of effective resistance (i.e. increased leakage).

 

- Randy