Posted April 27, 200618 yr I tried both motherboards since I wanted to upgrade my computer. Twice I ended up with the same problem. I plugged the CSA-649U Ultra IDE Controller BIOS Version 1.9.14 into any PCI-Slot. The datasheet of the SiI 0649 Ultra ATA100 PCI-to-ATA Host Controller says the following: PCI Bus • 32-bit, 33 MHz • PCI 2.1 compliant Power • 3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O • ACPI: PCI Bus Power Management Spec 1.1 compliant If I press "F1" (General Help) or "STRG + F1", then the BIOS freezes. All Advanced Options of the BIOS are not accessible. At http://www.gigabyte.de/MotherBoard/Products/Products_GA-K8U.htm or http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/Products/Products_Spec_GA-K8VT800%20(Rev%202.x).htm the following is explained: Expansion Slots 1. 1 x AGP slot (8x/4x-AGP 3.0 compliant), supports 1.5v display card only. 2. 5 x PCI slots (PCI 2.2 compliant) In the PCI Local Bus Specification / Revision 2.2 / December 18,1998 I found the following: PCI-2.2, page ii: Revision history shows that with revision 2.0, date 4/30/93, connector and expansion board Specification were incorporated. Since then connector Specification did not change. PCI-2.2, page 3: To provide a quick and easy transition from 5V to 3,3V component technology, PCI defines two add-in board connectors: one for the 5V signaling environment and one for the 3,3 V signaling environment. (…) To accommodate the 5V and 3,3V signaling environment and to facilitate a smooth migration path between the voltages, three add-in board electrical types are specified: a “5 volt” board which plugs into only the 5V connector, a “universal” board which plugs into both 5V and 3,3V connectors, and a “3,3 volt” board which plugs into only the 3,3V connector. PCI-2.2, page 113: The PCI electrical definition provides for both 5V and 3,3V signaling environments. These should not be confused with 5V and 3,3V component technologies. A “5V component” can be designed to work in a 3,3V signaling environment and vice versa; component technologies can be mixed in either signaling environment. The signaling environments cannot be mixed; all components on a given PCI bus must use the same signaling convention of 5V or 3,3V. One goal of the PCI electrical specification is to provide a quick an easy transition from 5V to 3,3V component technology. In order to facilitate this transition, PCI defines two expansion board connectors – one for 5V signaling environment and one for the 3,3V signaling environment – and three board electrical types, as shown in Figure 4-1. A connector keying system prevents a board from beeing inserted into an appropriate slot. The motherboard (including connectors) defines the signaling environment for the bus, whether it be 5V or 3,3V. The 5V expansion board is designed to work only in a 5V signaling environment and, therefore, can only be plugged into the 5V connector. Similarly, the 3,3V expansion board is designed to work only in the 3,3V signaling environment. However, the Universal expansion board is capable of detecting the signaling environment in use and adapting itself to that environment. It can, therefore, be plugged into either connector type. All three board types define connections to both 5 V and 3,3V power supplies and may contain either 5V and/or 3,3V components. The distinction between board types is the signaling protocol they use, not the power rails they connect to nor the component technology they contain. PCI-2.2, page 114: PCI components on the Universal board must use I/O buffers that can be compliant with either the 5V or 3,3 V signaling environment. While there are multiple buffer implementations that can achieve this dual environment compliance, it is intended that they be dual voltage buffers; i. e., capable of operating from either power rail. They should be powered from “I/O” designated power pins on PCI connectors that will always be connected to the power rail associated with the signaling environment in use. This means that in the 5V signaling environment, these buffers are powered on the 5V rail. When the same board is plugged into a 3,3V connector, these buffers are powered on the 3,3V rail. This enables the Universal Board to be compliant with either signaling environment. The intent of this transition approach is to move 5V component technology into the 3,3V signaling environment, rather than forcing 3,3V component technology to operate in a 5V signaling environment. While the later can be done, it is more difficult and more expensive, especially in an unterminated, modular bus environment. The preferred alternative – moving 5V components into a 3,3 V signaling environment – can be done without any incremental cost, and has, in addition, some signal performance benefits. All new component designs are recommended to use the dual voltage buffers. All new expansion boards are recommended to be Universal boards. This allows expansion boards based on 5V component technology to be used in both 5V and 3,3V systems, thus enabling the move to 3,3V systems. PCI-2.2, page 153: PCI cards and connectors are keyed to manage the 5V to 3,3V transition. The basic 32-bit connector contains 120 pins. The logical numbering of pins shows 124 pin identification numbers, but four pins are not present and are replaced by the keying location. In one orientation, the connector is keyed to accept 5V system signaling environment boards; turned 180 degrees, the key is located to accept 3,3V system signaling environment boards. Universal add-in cards, cards built to work in both 5V and 3,3V signaling environments, have two key slots so that they can plug into either connector. A 64-bit extension, built onto the same connector molding, extends the total number of pins to 184. The 32-bit connector subset defines the system signaling environment. 32-bit cards and 64-bit cards are inter-operable within the system’s signaling voltage classes defined by the keyring in the 32-bit connector subset. A 32-bit card identifies itself for 32-bit transfers on the 64-bit connector. A 64-bit card in a 32-bit connector must configure for 32-bit transfers. As far as I believe the following conclusions can be drawn from this: Since PCI-2.0 in 1993 exists the 5V-connector. And this 5V-connector is still specified in PCI-2.2. According to PCI-2.2-Specification a PCI-2.1-card for the 5V signaling environment should still be working flawless plugged into a PCI-2.2-5V-connector. Which reason(s) could lead to the result that it does partially or entirely not work?
April 29, 200618 yr Author The Gigabyte-Support answered: Answer - 346478 Answer : Sehr geehrter Kunde (Dear customer), vielen Dank für Ihre e-Mail (Thank you for your email). Wir können leider keinen Suport für diese alten Produkte von anderen Herstellern leisten (We are not able to offer support for such old products of other companies). Mit freundlichen Grüßen (With regards) Gigabyte-Team Why is the Support not able to give a technical answer? I asked another question: Please tell me for the motherboards GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 whether the PCI-connectors are suitable for 5V- or 3,3V-cards. I received the following answer: Answer - 349692 Answer : Sehr geehrter Herr xxxx (Dear Mr. xxxx), diese Mainboards unterstützten den PCI 2.3 Standart und somit 3,3 Volt (these motherboards support specification PCI 2.3 and therefore 3.3 volt). Mit freundlichem Gruß (Best regards) Gigabyte Support. Two questions arise from this answer: 1.) On the Internet pages is written, that the PCI-slots of GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 are compliant to PCI 2.2: http://www.gigabyte.de/MotherBoard/Products/Products_GA-K8U.htm or http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/Products/Products_Spec_GA-K8VT800%20(Rev%202.x).htm Expansion Slots 1. 1 x AGP slot (8x/4x-AGP 3.0 compliant), supports 1.5v display card only. 2. 5 x PCI slots (PCI 2.2 compliant) 2.) If the answer from Gigabyte-Support would be true that the PCI-slots on these motherboards are compliant to PCI 2.3 and therefore support 3.3 volt why are then 5V-connectors on these motherboards? The PCI-connectors are 5V-connectors because they have their key on the right side (seen in the mounting position of the mainboard). You can watch the pictures of these motherboards at http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8u_big.jpg and http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8vt800_big.jpg. Watch also the attached image PCI Board Connectors.jpg. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. True is the following: PCI-2.3 supports: 3,3 V-Connector: Yes 5 V-Connector: Yes 3,3V-only-card: Yes 5 V-only-card: No Universal-card (3,3V/5V): Yes This means that specification PCI 2.3 still supports the 5V signaling level but does no longer support the 5V-only-card.
April 30, 200618 yr I want to ask the obvious question here, because I am unclear if you had stated this or not, but have you switched the setting in the BIOS to LOWER it to the 2.1 standard that you need for the card ?? If I remember correctly, by just plugging in the device and knowing the motherboard is compliant will NOT always make it work, a lot of BIOS I have seen require that you change that setting to the lower specification manually to make the device work. . .
April 30, 200618 yr Author I did not even know that there are BIOS which allow to change the setting to the lower specification PCI 2.1 manually. But these modern motherboards like GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 do not offer such a feature as far as I know. Besides: If I press "F1" (General Help) or "STRG + F1", then the BIOS freezes. All Advanced Options of the BIOS, reachable by pressing "STRG + F1", are not accessible because of the freezing. So even if the Bios of these Gigabyte motherboards would have this feature I would not be able to use it. Please tell me at least one motherboard of whom you know that the BIOS supported to lower to PCI 2.1.
April 30, 200618 yr If the BIOS is freezing... and I am assuming this is on BOTH boards, then try accessing it WITHOUT the card plugged into the PCI port first, if it is STILL freezing without the card, then your problem is probably the memory sticks you are using. I just don't see why you would have problems with 2 boards unless the controller is bad, I highly doubt the problem is with the PCI compliance or revision of the boards. If your ide controller card is a 3.3v card, then that should be the end of the story there. It should simply work. Have you tried taking out a stick of memory if you have more then one ?? Have you tried getting into the BIOS with NO add in cards at all ?? . .
May 1, 200618 yr Author This is not the end of the story but most probably the end of what you understand. I did not even know that there are BIOS which allow to change the setting to the lower specification PCI 2.1 manually. Please tell me at least one motherboard of whom you know that the BIOS supported to lower to PCI 2.1. I am waiting for your answer. Without the said PCI-IDE-Controller no freezing happens to the bios and then of course it is possible to access the Advanced Bios Settings via "Strg. + F1". If you had really understood what I wrote you never would have made the suggestion with the 3,3 V card. First of all because I wrote that it is a 5 V card. Secondarily because it is not possible to plug a 3,3 V card into a 5 V PCI slot. The PCI-connectors are 5V-connectors because they have their key on the right side (seen in the mounting position of the mainboard). You can watch the pictures of these motherboards at http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8u_big.jpg and http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8vt800_big.jpg. Watch also the attached image PCI Board Connectors.jpg. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. True is the following: PCI-2.3 supports: 3,3 V-Connector: Yes 5 V-Connector: Yes 3,3V-only-card: Yes 5 V-only-card: No Universal-card (3,3V/5V): Yes This means that specification PCI 2.3 still supports the 5V signaling level but does no longer support the 5V-only-card. This problem has a lot to do with specification and the lake of knowledge from the side of the Gigabyte-Support who answered that these motherboards adhere to PCI 2.3 and therefore 3,3 Volt but on the Gigabyte-Internet pages is written that the PCI slots comply to PCI 2.2. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. Excerpt from the PCI Local Bus Specification, Revision 2.3, as the production version effective March 29, 2002: "The PCI Local Bus Specification, Rev. 2.3, includes the protocol, electrical, mechanical, and configuration specification for PCI Local Bus components and add-in cards. The electrical definition provides for 3.3V and 5V signaling environments. The PCI Local Bus specifies both the 3.3 volt and 5 volt signaling requirements and this revision no longer supports 5 volt only keyed add-in cards, which represents a significant step in the migration path to the 3.3 volt signaling environment. The PCI electrical definition provides for both 3.3V and 5V signaling environments. These should not be confused with 3.3V and 5V component technologies. A "3.3V component" can be designed to work in a 5V signaling environment and vice versa; component technologies can be mixed in either signaling environment. The signaling environments cannot be mixed; all components on a given PCI bus must use the same signaling convention of 3.3V or 5V. PCI defines two system add-in card connectors−one for the 3.3V signaling environment and one for the 5V signaling environment−and two add-in card electrical types, as shown in Figure 4-1. In the interest of facilitating the transition to the 3.3V signaling environment, the 5V keyed add-in card is no longer supported. Support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards but is expected to be removed from future versions of this specification. The connector keying system prevents an add-in card from being inserted into an inappropriate slot." The Gigabyte-Support answered: "These motherboards support specification PCI 2.3 and therefore 3.3 volt." But this "therefore" is wrong because the specification PCI 2.3 explicitly says that support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards. I also asked AOpen-Support a question regarding the 5Volt-PCI-connectors on the motherboard AX4C Max. The AOpen-Support answered: "This board does not support PCI-cards with 5.0 Volt as the 5Volt cards are to old! Therefore we do not support any request regarding these cards." AOpen-Support refuses to give any technical related answer to which PCI-Specification the PCI slots on the motherboard AX4C Max adheres argueing that the 5 Volt cards are to old. What a nonsense. Specification PCI 2.3 explicitly requests that support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards. This question has more to do with Specification than you can imagine.
May 1, 200618 yr This is not the end of the story but most probably the end of what you understand. I am waiting for your answer. My mistake, I was wrong. I was thinking of a different setting. If you had really understood what I wrote you never would have made the suggestion with the 3,3 V card. First of all because I wrote that it is a 5 V card. Secondarily because it is not possible to plug a 3,3 V card into a 5 V PCI slot.I apoligize, I am busy with multiple sites, if the card is a 5 volt card, then it WILL NOT WORK. This problem has a lot to do with specification and the lake of knowledge from the side of the Gigabyte-Support who answered that these motherboards adhere to PCI 2.3 and therefore 3,3 Volt but on the Gigabyte-Internet pages is written that the PCI slots comply to PCI 2.2. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. That would be because alot of the manual are written by cheap labor and are usually shoody copy and paste jobs, Biostar is Notorious for this too What a nonsense. Specification PCI 2.3 explicitly requests that support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards. This question has more to do with Specification than you can imagine.So then why complain about 2 different boards that dont work with the card ?? Why not just move on and get a card that WILL work. I'm not sure of what kind of answer you are looking for, plus you seem to be posting then answering your own questions yourself. I can't give you any kind of info to make your motherboard magically work with the card. . .
May 1, 200618 yr Author I apoligize' date=' I am busy with multiple sites, if the card is a 5 volt card, then it WILL NOT WORK.[/quote'] Yes of course, you are really an * Expert *. A 5V-card WILL NOT WORK in a 5V-PCI-Slot. I'm not sure of what kind of answer you are looking for' date=' plus you seem to be posting then answering your own questions yourself.[/quote'] What about a technical correct and intelligent feedback? I tried to find an intelligent person who would be able to understand the problem and to confirm whether my reading of the specification was correct. Equipped with this confirmation I would then continue my investigation towards the Gigabyte-Support. Forget it * Expert *.
May 2, 200618 yr What do you want me to answer asshole ??? Do you want me to YET AGAIN explain to your retarded ass the same thing you just read ?? Here's your questions (shortened down): Hi, I have 3 mother boards and not a damn one of them work with my card, I'm too ignorant to realize that my add in card is simply not compatible, and I would like someone to explain why, even though having the correct answer will get me know where.. I'll post a bunch of useless garbage and redundant specs in the hopes that somehow, even though I am utterly stupid, someone else might be able to explain why it's all messed up. I'm also too ignorant to realize that my PC boards only support a 3.3v device even though I want to use a 5v device. It drives me so damn nuts that I must criticize anyone else who dares explain it to me again, and, I would like to add that I am also too ignorant to just go out and spend a whopping $20 on a new card that will work...PLEASE HELP.. My answer: Don't like my response, find another board who offers free support, the card won't work, get over it. . .
May 2, 200618 yr Author This is not the language of an IT-expert. Govern your tongue. Before I buy something new I will try to understand the bottom of the problem. Otherwise I will end up like you changing cards from one PCI slot to another without any result. Furthermore I will tell companies that I believe that they do not adhere close enough to the PCI Specification which would be a great advantage for customers.
May 2, 200618 yr This is not the language of an IT-expert. Govern your tongue.Ohh really, now are you trying to say an IT expert does not use rude language ?? That would be the ones who are getting paid money, I do this for free, and I will NOT govern my tongue on a site that I am operating on. Before I buy something new I will try to understand the bottom of the problem. Otherwise I will end up like you changing cards from one PCI slot to another without any result.Actually, my stuff works just fine, did from the beginning, no slot changing needed. And who said anything about trying multiple slots, I said to AT LEAST make sure the problem can be traced to the card Furthermore I will tell companies that I believe that they do not adhere close enough to the PCI Specification which would be a great advantage for customers.Sure they do, it's just that some customers are too dumb to decipher the instructions, so they overanalyze the problem. CASE IN POINT. . .
