Re: [News] SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Moshe Goldfarb
  • Start date Start date
M

Moshe Goldfarb

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:55:24 -0400, josh fickler wrote:

> "Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in message
> news:1424995.idisEzFXlP@schestowitz.com...
>> Windows is caught between Mac and Linux
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>| For the first time in ages, the sale of new PCs with Windows as a
>> percentage
>>| of the PC market is declining sharply. The new winner is the Mac, but,
>> while
>>| no one does a good job of tracking the still-new, pre-installed Linux
>> desktop
>>| market, it's also clear that Linux is finally making impressive inroads
>> into
>>| Windows' once unchallenged market share.
>>|
>>| [...]
>>|
>>| How Microsoft deals, or fails to deal, with this new challenge will
>> determine
>>| if Windows continues to be the dominant desktop operating system.
>> Distracted
>>| by its Yahoo buyout plans, its courtroom failures and its leadership
>> changes,
>>| Microsoft is in trouble, and that means the other desktop operating
>> systems
>>| have their best chance ever to knock Windows off the top of the desktop
>> hill.
>> `----
>>
>> http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8541837412.html
>>
>
> This nut has been predicting the end of Microsoft and the linux dominatation
> of the desktop for years now. How's that working out for ya?
>
> I like this quote the best - "I see two strong trends here. On the high end,
> people are buying Macs instead of Windows PC. On the low end, Linux is
> eating Windows alive."
>
> So according to him "Macs are high-end" and "Linux is low-end" with Windows
> in the middle. Thanks for finally admitting that linux is sub-part to
> Windows.

Linux is still sitting at about 0.6 percent of the desktop market.
Even though Linux is free and has been around for ten or more years.

That's pretty pathetic.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

On Mar 22, 11:46 pm, Moshe Goldfarb <brick.n.st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Linux is still sitting at about 0.6 percent of the desktop market.
> Even though Linux is free and has been around for ten or more years.
>
> That's pretty pathetic.

Ten years, from 0.0 to 0.6.

0.6/0.0 = infinite number!
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, AqD
<aquila.deus@gmail.com>
wrote
on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
<047a4f5e-de36-4bcc-9949-16ffa7523d6a@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
> On Mar 22, 11:46 pm, Moshe Goldfarb <brick.n.st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Linux is still sitting at about 0.6 percent of the desktop market.
>> Even though Linux is free and has been around for ten or more years.
>>
>> That's pretty pathetic.
>
> Ten years, from 0.0 to 0.6.
>
> 0.6/0.0 = infinite number!

Not quite that simple. However, one still gets

0.006/(1/5.27E9) = 31620000

(In case you're wondering, 5.27E9 is the approximate population of the
World as of August 25, 1990, according to the Java applet in
http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop . The 1 is, of course,
Linus Torvalds -) .)

This translates into an average growth rate of about 2.7% a year.

Followups exclusively to COLA.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
to fix your Windows problems?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

"The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
news:26hqb5-0e9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...

> This translates into an average growth rate of about 2.7% a year.

Whoopie - nothing to get excited about. If you go from 0 to 1 to 2 to 4 to
8 to 16 to 32 to 64 to 128 to 256 users, that's an impressive-looking
annual growth rate of 100% year over year for 10 years! Nothing like
statistics to really obfuscate bad numbers!

> Followups exclusively to COLA.

Why? Because you say so? Guess again.

> Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
> to fix your Windows problems?

It would be both easier and cheaper to just learn Windows.
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Bob Campbell
<bob@bob.bob>
wrote
on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:15:40 -0400
<13ul87df2sdo3f3@news.supernews.com>:
> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
> news:26hqb5-0e9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...
>
>> This translates into an average growth rate of about 2.7% a year.
>
> Whoopie - nothing to get excited about. If you go from 0 to 1 to 2 to 4 to
> 8 to 16 to 32 to 64 to 128 to 256 users, that's an impressive-looking
> annual growth rate of 100% year over year for 10 years! Nothing like
> statistics to really obfuscate bad numbers!

Precisely. The growth rate is probably 0.001%, but I'd have
to look. Microsoft, after all, has the desktop market sewn
up -- though it would help if they didn't keep shooting
themselves in the foot.

Vista could have been an outstandingly stellar release as it
is, it's merely as well as can be expected.

I'm hoping for very good things for Windows 7, 5 years or
so in the future. The Windows 7 release will probably
be a split release part of the release will go on the
desktop, but an equally important part of the release is
an as-yet-unnamed server portion, which will implement,
among other things, SilverLight and .NET 5. .NET 5 will
presumably have built-in identification technology for
DRM and allow for point-to-point sales validation for
such things as ringtones and videos. Integration with
SQL Server will allow for a very powerful server platform
to support the rich functionality on the user's already
powerful desktop. Games of course will use DirectX 12,
which will most likely include current weather forecasts
in outdoor locales. (For a fee.)

Very exciting technology.

>
>> Followups exclusively to COLA.
>
> Why? Because you say so? Guess again.

If you want I can followup exclusively to alt.flame.
I cannot control your actions, but maybe others might take
the hint?

>
>> Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
>> to fix your Windows problems?
>
> It would be both easier and cheaper to just learn Windows.
>

Indeed. Perhaps Microsoft can simply stipulate that
from now on, ISO et al can go to hell and simply declare
Windows Vista, Longhorn, or Windows 7 the de facto standard
for anything. Furthermore, they would have to clearly
declare that Unix is at variance with the standard --
which is easy enough since Unix doesn't support things
such as backslash for file delimiters.

Try, for instance, 'mkdir "C:\\Program Files\\Microsoft
Windows\\Internet Explorer"' on any Unix system. Chances
are, you'll get the wrong result -- a directory whose
name starts with "C:\Program Files\.." and containing
funny backslash characters. On Microsoft, the directory
"Internet Explorer" will be correctly created, in the
expected place.

Once Microsoft is able to revise the standard so that '/'
indicates a flag rather than a directory delimiter as it
currently is in many utilities on Unix and Linux, we'll be
all right. Of course, a more likely scenario will simply
have Microsoft declaring that file paths are the province
of Microsoft Windows, and specification thereof is limited
to the Microsoft reference implementation.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Linux makes one use one's mind.
Windows just messes with one's head.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

* Bob Campbell peremptorily fired off this memo:

> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
> news:26hqb5-0e9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...
>
>> This translates into an average growth rate of about 2.7% a year.
>
> Whoopie - nothing to get excited about. If you go from 0 to 1 to 2 to 4 to
> 8 to 16 to 32 to 64 to 128 to 256 users, that's an impressive-looking
> annual growth rate of 100% year over year for 10 years! Nothing like
> statistics to really obfuscate bad numbers!
>
>> Followups exclusively to COLA.
>
> Why? Because you say so? Guess again.
>
>> Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
>> to fix your Windows problems?
>
> It would be both easier and cheaper to just learn Windows.

Not if it's your first computer.

--
It turns out Luddites don't know how to use software properly, so you should
look into that. -- The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix
bugs. It's absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new version I
ever heard. When we do a new version we put in lots of new things that
people are asking for. And so, in no sense, is stability a reason to move to
a new version. It's never a reason.
-- Bill Gates, http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

In article <fsea1t$c9n$4@registered.motzarella.org>,
Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Bullshit. Please do not even TRY to say Linux is easier to use than
>Windows. You know full well it isn't.

Of course it is. All you need to do is learn emacs and you
have everything you need.

And the E in EMACS stands for "easy".
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) writes:

> In article <fsea1t$c9n$4@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>Bullshit. Please do not even TRY to say Linux is easier to use than
>>Windows. You know full well it isn't.
>
> Of course it is. All you need to do is learn emacs and you
> have everything you need.
>
> And the E in EMACS stands for "easy".


Please check posting headers. Emacs is one of the finest programmes ever
written. But it is not easy for a new computer user.

--
<donnerjack> Nothing says "I enjoy living with you" like the gift of
3rd degree burns...
<Mephron> except, of course, turning his bed into a trebuchet.
<Ladegard> That much effort must mean some sort of affection.
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

In article <fsecv4$gkn$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Emacs is one of the finest programmes ever
>written. But it is not easy for a new computer user.
>

I learned it as a new user. It was easy!

Now, TECO was hard...

>--
>Please check posting headers.

They look OK to me. Except for the customary inane crossposting.
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) writes:

> In article <fsecv4$gkn$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Emacs is one of the finest programmes ever
>>written. But it is not easy for a new computer user.
>>
>
> I learned it as a new user. It was easy!

So what? Anyone with any sense knows its NOT easy for the average
user. You are obviously super clever!

>
> Now, TECO was hard...
>

I'm sure. I never heard of it until now.

>>--
>>Please check posting headers.
>
> They look OK to me. Except for the customary inane crossposting.
>

--
"For example, user interfaces are _usually_ better in commercial software.
I'm not saying that this is always true, but in many cases the user
interface to a program is the most important part for a commercial
company..." Linus Torvalds <http://www.tlug.jp/docs/linus.html>
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

Hadron wrote:

> wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) writes:
>
>> In article <fsecv4$gkn$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Emacs is one of the finest programmes ever
>>>written. But it is not easy for a new computer user.
>>>
>>
>> I learned it as a new user. It was easy!
>
> So what? Anyone with any sense knows its NOT easy for the average
> user. You are obviously super clever!
>
Well, you managed to learn it Hadron. What category do you fall into? I
suspect it is the "average" category.

Cheers.


--
What does Bill Gates use?
http://tinyurl.com/2zxhdl

Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.

Microsoft Is Watching YOU: http://tinyurl.com/2ptclh
 
Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.

PotsOn <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

> Hadron wrote:
>
>> wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) writes:
>>
>>> In article <fsecv4$gkn$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
>>> Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Emacs is one of the finest programmes ever
>>>>written. But it is not easy for a new computer user.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I learned it as a new user. It was easy!
>>
>> So what? Anyone with any sense knows its NOT easy for the average
>> user. You are obviously super clever!
>>
> Well, you managed to learn it Hadron. What category do you fall into? I
> suspect it is the "average" category.
>
> Cheers.

Because I have used it for years I have witnessed people struggle. How
easy I found it isn't the issue. The issue is how the average user takes
to it - and usage figures and feedback suggest that the average or
majority of users get totally overwhelmed by it. Since I have used it
since 1989 or so I can't really comment on my own adoption rate other
than I know it's more difficult than something like gedit.

People here make the mistake of thinking that their personal experience
is the same for everyone else. It isn't. Part of an analysts job is to
see things from other peoples perspective. This whole "works for me"
attitude is what sinks Linux so frequently. Look at Gregory Shearman's
rantings about how creating a good consistent UI is a waste of a
programmer's time. How clueless can you get?

--
I'm personally quite happy with one stable release every two years, and
am of the opinion that trying to release more will mean we'll have to
rename the distro from "stable" to "wobbly".
-- Scott James Remnant on debian-devel
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux islowe-end" computing.)

"The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> stated in post
rq0tb5-dkn.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net on 3/27/08 10:07 AM:

>>> Way to miss the point. In case you're wondering, it landed over there.
>>>
>>> :-P
>>>
>>> Perhaps I should have asked you instead what you find difficult about
>>> Ubuntu?
>>>
>> ... it's having to deal with a KDE app and a Gnome app at the same time.
>> No should ever be forced to do that. The shame over the confusios in
>> unbearable...
>>
>> [/sarcasm]
>>
>
> Be careful. You're confusing Hadron with Snit. -)

How can you tell who his mocking lies are about?


--
It usually takes me more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
speech. -- Mark Twain
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux islowe-end" computing.)

"Hadron" <hadronquark@googlemail.com> stated in post
fsgmr2$lgm$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/27/08 10:51 AM:

>> Be careful. You're confusing Hadron with Snit. -)
>
> I dont know if he is or isn't. I know however that I hate firing up KDE
> apps on my Gnome desktop. It does "confuse" me to various degrees. The
> LInux UI is often a fragmented mess. And fragmented UIs effect
> efficiency as you know only too well. Its why there are standards and
> why acceptance tests invariably concentrate a huge % of effort to ensure
> a product meets the standards to which the end users are familiar with.

Not sure I would use the word "confuse", but it clearly is something that is
not "best for the user", as even Rick has admitted.

Funny how he mocks his own past views:

Rick:
And yes, I do know that it is better for the user if the button
are all in the same places in comparable dialog boxes, and that
common menu items are the same.

Rick
... it's having to deal with a KDE app and a Gnome app at
the same time. No should ever be forced to do that. The
shame over the confusios in unbearable... [/sarcasm]

If he could only learn to be consistent in his views he would not feel the
need to run so fast and so far... and to lash out so much. Well, that and
not pretend he knows about things he clearly does not.

--
One who makes no mistakes, never makes anything.
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.)

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Snit
<usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
wrote
on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:01:08 -0700
<C4113D04.B07EE%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>:
> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> stated in post
> rq0tb5-dkn.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net on 3/27/08 10:07 AM:
>
>>>> Way to miss the point. In case you're wondering, it landed over there.
>>>>
>>>> :-P
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps I should have asked you instead what you find difficult about
>>>> Ubuntu?
>>>>
>>> ... it's having to deal with a KDE app and a Gnome app at the same time.
>>> No should ever be forced to do that. The shame over the confusios in
>>> unbearable...
>>>
>>> [/sarcasm]
>>>
>>
>> Be careful. You're confusing Hadron with Snit. -)
>
> How can you tell who his mocking lies are about?
>

Hadron is not interested in a consistent user interface
that's your province as far as I can tell. -)

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
If your CPU can't stand the heat, get another fan.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux islowe-end" computing.)

"The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> stated in post
psbtb5-0rp.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net on 3/27/08 1:15 PM:

> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Snit
> <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
> wrote
> on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:01:08 -0700
> <C4113D04.B07EE%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>:
>> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> stated in post
>> rq0tb5-dkn.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net on 3/27/08 10:07 AM:
>>
>>>>> Way to miss the point. In case you're wondering, it landed over there.
>>>>>
>>>>> :-P
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I should have asked you instead what you find difficult about
>>>>> Ubuntu?
>>>>>
>>>> ... it's having to deal with a KDE app and a Gnome app at the same time.
>>>> No should ever be forced to do that. The shame over the confusios in
>>>> unbearable...
>>>>
>>>> [/sarcasm]
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be careful. You're confusing Hadron with Snit. -)
>>
>> How can you tell who his mocking lies are about?
>>
>
> Hadron is not interested in a consistent user interface
> that's your province as far as I can tell. -)

Hadron... and even Rick at times... have agreed that a consistent user
interface is better for the user. Unlike Rick, though, Hadron does not flip
flop back and forth.


--
One who makes no mistakes, never makes anything.
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux islowe-end" computing.)

"Rick" <none@nomail.com> stated in post 13uo20jg41dcmb1@news.supernews.com
on 3/27/08 1:48 PM:

>> I dont know if he is or isn't. I know however that I hate firing up KDE
>> apps on my Gnome desktop. It does "confuse" me to various degrees. The
>> LInux UI is often a fragmented mess. And fragmented UIs effect
>> efficiency as you know only too well. Its why there are standards and
>> why acceptance tests invariably concentrate a huge % of effort to ensure
>> a product meets the standards to which the end users are familiar with.
>
> Then don't use KDE apps in Gnome.
>
> ... or don't use Linux at all.
>
>
> Problems solved.

Great advocacy! Instead of admitting to the flaws in Linux just don't use
it.

Amazing, Rick... just amazing.

--
The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of
limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and
great nations. - David Friedman
 
Re: How Exactly To Use Linux (was Re: SJVN admits - "Linux is lowe-end" computing.)

"Snit" <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote in message
news:C41156AB.B0845%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com...
> "Rick" <none@nomail.com> stated in post 13uo20jg41dcmb1@news.supernews.com
> on 3/27/08 1:48 PM:
>
>>> I dont know if he is or isn't. I know however that I hate firing up KDE
>>> apps on my Gnome desktop. It does "confuse" me to various degrees. The
>>> LInux UI is often a fragmented mess. And fragmented UIs effect
>>> efficiency as you know only too well. Its why there are standards and
>>> why acceptance tests invariably concentrate a huge % of effort to ensure
>>> a product meets the standards to which the end users are familiar with.
>>
>> Then don't use KDE apps in Gnome.
>>
>> ... or don't use Linux at all.
>>
>>
>> Problems solved.
>
> Great advocacy! Instead of admitting to the flaws in Linux just don't use
> it.
>
> Amazing, Rick... just amazing.

One can advocate something, and still admit that it may not be for everyone.
I don't advocate any particular platform. Each has it's strength's, and it's
weaknesses. I've run Solaris on the desktop. Does that mean everyone should?
Hell no. Anyone that has ever ran Solaris knows it is a stone cold PITA. I
ran Mandrake/Mandriva. Always liked the fact that they were on the bleeding
edge. I've been a Gnomie from jump. Always felt that KDE was TOOOOOO much
like Windows. Although for a new user to Linux from Windows WOULD find it
very familiar.

The programs for Linux however leave a lot to be desired, and that is what
is holding back a wider spread acceptance of it on the desktop. I do a lot
of graphic art and 3D rendering. Blender is a close equivalent to Bryce, but
the interface is counter intuitive as hell. It's like trying to read ancient
Hittite. I also use Poser. The only non Windows ported program like Maya or
XSI, is K-3D. And that still doesn't come close. I really like Evolution.
But it is still not in the same class as Outlook yet.

Here are some things that I feel need to be addressed in order to make Linux
a viable contender on the desktop:

1. Better programs. You need programs that are equivalent. Not nearly as
good, but on par with offerings from Windows platform.

2. Installation of programs. Most users are used to just pulling down a
self-extracting file, or a zip, and just running the install, and boom it's
there. While the package managers are great, just trying to install a
package can be extremely frustrating. I can't remember how many times I've
tried to install something only to get a dependency error. You need
Bonobo.x.x.xxxx.x or or gooberstalk1.x.xxx.x.xx. Further exacerbating the
problem of the different package managers for different distros. Whereas any
Win32 program SHOULD run on any version from 95 to Vista. There ARE
exceptions obviously, but you see what I am saying. Finally, and worst yet,
are those programs that have to be compiled. Those of us that have done it,
don't think too much about it, but a regular user just isn't going to want
to do it.

3. Ease of use and compatibility While major strides have been made here,
it's still not on the level of Mac or Windows. Too much work has to be done
to make some things work right. Face it, most users are lazy. They just want
stuff to work.

As I have said many times, I don't care what people use. I DO have a problem
with the zealots from whatever camp. If advocates could take a calm unbiased
view, I wouldn't have a problem with them. But retards like Alias, 7, and
the others like them are what cause such a backlash.

--
Sanity calms, but madness is more interesting.
http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel
Undo the munge to reply by email
 
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