Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Moshe Goldfarb
  • Start date Start date
* Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>> Office?
>>
>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?

>
> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>
> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>
> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel.


Except that those products are hardly a good deal.

> Excel paid for
> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
> poor documentation of OO.


What a stupid thing to say, Tim. For the purpose above, OpenOffice is
quite adequate.

If you don't like OO Calc, then try Gnumeric. It's main developer has
spent a lot of time master Microsoft-type functionality, I guessing.

> Word isn't worth it if you are just writing letters to grandma, but if
> you are writing long, structured, documents, such as specifications or
> project proposals, its document organizational features make it a win.
> Until OpenOffice has a good outliner, it is not a contender.


For you (and, to be fair, some others). I've never used an outliner, ever.

> (The good news is that the OO developers have acknowledged that a good
> outliner is a high priority, and that the navigator stuff it now has is
> not a substitute for this. The bad news is they say it will involve
> some major work, so might take a while).


My take is, don't buy Microsoft software until you find you
absolutely need it. See if open-source apps do what you need, first.

--
As we look ahead into the next century, leaders will be those who empower
others.
-- Bill Gates
 
>On 2008-03-30, Moshe Goldfarb <brick.n.straw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I call them as I see them.


You're a documented liar. You're filth.
 
On 2008-03-30, rick <icky@sticky.inv> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:31:16 -0500, Stephan Rose wrote:
>
>>
>> But what about home users? Personally, I just use Gnucash and call it a
>> day. I can enter all my expenses and bills and categorize things the way
>> I want. And, it's got more graphs and reports to show with than I even
>> know what they all mean. About the only report I give a crap about is
>> the expense barchart so I can see where my expenses are and what may be
>> worth looking at for improvement....So even if this program doesn't have
>> all the features Quickbooks has, it already has more than I'll ever
>> need...

>
> A turbotax port would be nice, especially for us sole proprietors who are
> trying to run the biz as economically as possible.


You really have no business using software for something like
that to begin with anyways...

--
NO! There are no CODICILES of Fight Club! |||
/ | \
That way leads to lawyers and business megacorps and credit cards!

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On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>> Office?
>>>
>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?

>>
>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>
>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>
>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>> poor documentation of OO.

>
> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an


For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.

[deletia]

Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.

--
NO! There are no CODICILES of Fight Club! |||
/ | \
That way leads to lawyers and business megacorps and credit cards!

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JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:

> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>> Office?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>
>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>
>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>
>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>> poor documentation of OO.

>>
>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an

>
> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.
>
> [deletia]
>
> Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.


I can dig a hole in the frozen tundra with a tin fork if I put my mind
to it. Why I would bother when there's a jcb around the corner I don't
know.

--
<Z-Gryphon> If Unicron had a tech spec card, his motto would be "That
which does not become part of the One shall become Void."
<Z-Gryphon> which is sort of a grand-scale, apocalyptic version of "I
am what I eat." :)
 
"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> stated in post
slrnfv1t4e.h4a.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 3/31/08 7:26 AM:

> On 2008-03-30, rick <icky@sticky.inv> wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:31:16 -0500, Stephan Rose wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But what about home users? Personally, I just use Gnucash and call it a
>>> day. I can enter all my expenses and bills and categorize things the way
>>> I want. And, it's got more graphs and reports to show with than I even
>>> know what they all mean. About the only report I give a crap about is
>>> the expense barchart so I can see where my expenses are and what may be
>>> worth looking at for improvement....So even if this program doesn't have
>>> all the features Quickbooks has, it already has more than I'll ever
>>> need...

>>
>> A turbotax port would be nice, especially for us sole proprietors who are
>> trying to run the biz as economically as possible.

>
> You really have no business using software for something like
> that to begin with anyways...


Why not?


--
Never stand between a dog and the hydrant. - John Peers
 
"JEDIDIAH" <jedi@nomad.mishnet> stated in post
slrnfv1tf2.h4a.jedi@nomad.mishnet on 3/31/08 7:32 AM:

> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>> Office?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>
>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>
>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>
>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>> poor documentation of OO.

>>
>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an

>
> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.


The question is not if Linux can or cannot be used for such... that is your
straw man. The question is if Linux has a good and consistent UI for doing
such... and more. It clearly does not.

--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/f34z
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
 
On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>
>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>> Office?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>>
>>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>>
>>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>>> poor documentation of OO.
>>>
>>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an

>>
>> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
>> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
>> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
>> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.

>
> I can dig a hole in the frozen tundra with a tin fork if I put my mind
> to it. Why I would bother when there's a jcb around the corner I don't
> know.
>


This is no frozen tundra we are talking about here.

Infact, if you insist on pushing this particular analogy than
the rest of us here with a clue will just have to assume that you
have never really come anywhere close to fully exploiting the
capabilities of a modern spreadsheet.


--
NO! There are no CODICILES of Fight Club! |||
/ | \
That way leads to lawyers and business megacorps and credit cards!

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:

> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>
>>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Office?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>>>
>>>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>>>> poor documentation of OO.
>>>>
>>>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>>>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>>>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an
>>>
>>> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
>>> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
>>> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
>>> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.
>>>
>>> [deletia]
>>>
>>> Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.

>>
>> I can dig a hole in the frozen tundra with a tin fork if I put my mind
>> to it. Why I would bother when there's a jcb around the corner I don't
>> know.
>>

>
> This is no frozen tundra we are talking about here.
>
> Infact, if you insist on pushing this particular analogy than
> the rest of us here with a clue will just have to assume that you
> have never really come anywhere close to fully exploiting the
> capabilities of a modern spreadsheet.


Why are you so fixated on a spreadsheet? We were talking general UI
principles.

And WTF a consistent UI being a good thing has to do with what features
I do, and do not, personally use in my spreadsheets is really quite
beyond me. You seem to be trying to erect a strawman here while showing
off about your l33t spreadsheet usage.

--
"Its obvious Micoshaft sponsored frauds and net stalkers are now attacking individuals directly in organised gangs in linux advocacy newsgroups as predicted since it is known micoshaft is failing in the market place."
7, COLA Linux "advocate" and nutjob.
 
On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>
>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Office?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>>>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>>>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>>>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>>>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>>>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>>>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>>>>> poor documentation of OO.
>>>>>
>>>>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>>>>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>>>>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an
>>>>
>>>> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
>>>> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
>>>> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
>>>> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.
>>>>
>>>> [deletia]
>>>>
>>>> Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.
>>>
>>> I can dig a hole in the frozen tundra with a tin fork if I put my mind
>>> to it. Why I would bother when there's a jcb around the corner I don't
>>> know.
>>>

>>
>> This is no frozen tundra we are talking about here.
>>
>> Infact, if you insist on pushing this particular analogy than
>> the rest of us here with a clue will just have to assume that you
>> have never really come anywhere close to fully exploiting the
>> capabilities of a modern spreadsheet.

>
> Why are you so fixated on a spreadsheet? We were talking general UI


...cause that is the PARTICULAR TOOL we happen to be talking about
here.

Today we are not discussing the industrial engineering of ditch
digging or cheetos production.

> principles.
>
> And WTF a consistent UI being a good thing has to do with what features


A "consistent UI" for the most part will not address the vast
majority of what a spreadsheet user does since it is distinct from
many other things.

> I do, and do not, personally use in my spreadsheets is really quite
> beyond me. You seem to be trying to erect a strawman here while showing
> off about your l33t spreadsheet usage.
>


You are discussing a tool and then trying to ignore what it's used
for. It's like fixating on the few menus in Gimp or Photoshop that are
common with any other application and ignoring the rest.

Shallow use should not be inconvenienced by any change of platform.

--
NO! There are no CODICILES of Fight Club! |||
/ | \
That way leads to lawyers and business megacorps and credit cards!

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----------------------------------------------------------
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JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:

> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>
>>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2008-03-31, Hadron <hadronquark@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <KrGdncFbFefZL3LanZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>>>> Stephan Rose <nospam@spammer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Office?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
>>>>>>>> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
>>>>>>> $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
>>>>>>> which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
>>>>>>> itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
>>>>>>> detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
>>>>>>> various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
>>>>>>> OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
>>>>>>> poor documentation of OO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
>>>>>> not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
>>>>>> or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an
>>>>>
>>>>> For simple stuff, I am not sure I wouldn't agree with your attempt
>>>>> at a strawman. This is the sort of thing I have been doing with spreadsheets
>>>>> since before msoffice even existed. So I find the idea that OO isn't up
>>>>> to this ridiculously simple task beyond absurd.
>>>>>
>>>>> [deletia]
>>>>>
>>>>> Like I said... a job for Opus. Nevermind OO.
>>>>
>>>> I can dig a hole in the frozen tundra with a tin fork if I put my mind
>>>> to it. Why I would bother when there's a jcb around the corner I don't
>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is no frozen tundra we are talking about here.
>>>
>>> Infact, if you insist on pushing this particular analogy than
>>> the rest of us here with a clue will just have to assume that you
>>> have never really come anywhere close to fully exploiting the
>>> capabilities of a modern spreadsheet.

>>
>> Why are you so fixated on a spreadsheet? We were talking general UI

>
> ...cause that is the PARTICULAR TOOL we happen to be talking about
> here.
>
> Today we are not discussing the industrial engineering of ditch
> digging or cheetos production.
>
>> principles.
>>
>> And WTF a consistent UI being a good thing has to do with what features

>
> A "consistent UI" for the most part will not address the vast
> majority of what a spreadsheet user does since it is distinct from
> many other things.


I know. Which is why I wonder why you are now trying to talk about
spreadsheet functionality.

>
>> I do, and do not, personally use in my spreadsheets is really quite
>> beyond me. You seem to be trying to erect a strawman here while showing
>> off about your l33t spreadsheet usage.
>>

>
> You are discussing a tool and then trying to ignore what it's used
> for. It's like fixating on the few menus in Gimp or Photoshop that are
> common with any other application and ignoring the rest.


Oh dear. Another person who doesn't understand what consistent UI
means. You dont really think we think they all have exactly the same
Menus do you? With no specifics? Oh my dear god.

> Shallow use should not be inconvenienced by any change of
> platform.


You've become tiresome again. You clearly are lost once more and not
worth discussing things with.

(ps great .sig below - it really is Vista all over again in COLA!)

--
It explains a lot. I've not heard of anyone I know, anywhere, buying XP,
and I've not seen it sold whilst I've been in any shops.
comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy
 
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