Dear Microsoft: Please get UAC right this time

  • Thread starter Thread starter Clear Windows
  • Start date Start date
C

Clear Windows

UAC is stupid the way it is, nuff said read article:


http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=461

UAC could certainly have been handled better. It does something the security
industry has been well aware of for a long time - it creates the "cry wolf"
problem of popup fatigue (people turn off or ignore the popups after
awhile). Vista is more secure than XP, despite what others might say, but it
still gets infected. Since over 80% of all infections are based on social
engineering, the popups should focus on that weak point. If UAC targeted the
key areas where people run into trouble (as opposed to harassing the user on
inane actions), it would be far more helpful and potentially make a really
significant impact on infection rates.

Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the third,
and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes arrive,
the more annoying the phenomenon.

I was all prepared to lay out my modest proposal for how Microsoft should
tweak UAC in Windows 7. And then I said, "Hey, wait a minute! I already did
this."

And sure enough, with a little help from Google I was able to reread "How
Microsoft can save User Account Control." which I wrote way back in May
2006, while Vista was still in beta. In that post, I offered four
"suggestions that might ease the pain" of UAC. Two years later, I think
those recommendations are still valid, so I'm reprinting them here, with a
little updated commentary on each one:

Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option that
lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily open a
session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil is in the
details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this option as the
default?

I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance Consent
mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching into silent
consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2: Taming UAC),
but that setting is persistent, in the current session and in future
sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal behavior, I've made
myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The default settings could
exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time - say, 15 minutes - in
which I take no activity that would have required UAC approval.

Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process. When
that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what if a
UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes? Long enough
to install a couple of programs or make a series of system tweaks, but not
so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of malware.

I think this should be an option in every UAC dialog box. It can be hidden,
just as the Options section of IE7's Close dialog box is hidden by default.
Give me a check box that says "Automatically approve elevation requests for
the next 10 minutes." That way, I get to approve the first UAC dialog box
and then don't have to worry about a flurry of additional, related UAC
prompts.

Provide easy options to open Control Panel and/or Explorer with full Admin
rights. As I indicated earlier, it takes only a right-click and a quick OK
to open either of these windows with full permissions. So why not offer
those options on the Start menu?

This is an especially important change to make for Control Panel. If I open
Control Panel and double-click an icon with the UAC shield, that consent
should transfer to any other action I execute from Control Panel, until I
close the Control Panel window. This feature might work especially well in
tandem with the next suggestion.

Identify applications running in an elevated context. Today, if I open two
Windows Explorer sessions - one as a standard user and another using an
administrator's process token - I have no way to distinguish which is which.
A text label in the title bar, or a blood-red border around the window,
would help prevent this convenient shortcut from becoming a security hole.

For Command Prompt sessions, this was addressed (too subtly, in my opinion)
in Vista RTM. When you run Cmd.exe as an Administrator, the word
"Administrator:" appears in front of the window title in the title bar. I
still like the idea of the blood-red border.

As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal decisively
with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff between
performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many people are
likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone loses."

That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a year of
user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.
 
Clear Windows731941 Wrote:
> UAC is stupid the way it is, nuff said read article:
>
>
> 'Dear Microsoft: Please get UAC right this time | Ed Bott’s
> Microsoft Report | ZDNet.com' (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=461)
>
> UAC could certainly have been handled better. It does something the
> security
> industry has been well aware of for a long time - it creates the "cry
> wolf"
> problem of popup fatigue (people turn off or ignore the popups after
> awhile). Vista is more secure than XP, despite what others might say,
> but it
> still gets infected. Since over 80% of all infections are based on
> social
> engineering, the popups should focus on that weak point. If UAC
> targeted the
> key areas where people run into trouble (as opposed to harassing the
> user on
> inane actions), it would be far more helpful and potentially make a
> really
> significant impact on infection rates.
>
> Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
> people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the
> third,
> and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes
> arrive,
> the more annoying the phenomenon.
>
> I was all prepared to lay out my modest proposal for how Microsoft
> should
> tweak UAC in Windows 7. And then I said, "Hey, wait a minute! I already
> did
> this."
>
> And sure enough, with a little help from Google I was able to reread
> "How
> Microsoft can save User Account Control." which I wrote way back in May
> 2006, while Vista was still in beta. In that post, I offered four
> "suggestions that might ease the pain" of UAC. Two years later, I think
> those recommendations are still valid, so I'm reprinting them here,
> with a
> little updated commentary on each one:
>
> Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option
> that
> lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily open a
> session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil is in
> the
> details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this option as
> the
> default?
>
> I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
> implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance
> Consent
> mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching into
> silent
> consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2: Taming
> UAC),
> but that setting is persistent, in the current session and in future
> sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal behavior, I've
> made
> myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The default settings
> could
> exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time - say, 15 minutes - in
> which I take no activity that would have required UAC approval.
>
> Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process.
> When
> that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what if
> a
> UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes? Long
> enough
> to install a couple of programs or make a series of system tweaks, but
> not
> so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of malware.
>
> I think this should be an option in every UAC dialog box. It can be
> hidden,
> just as the Options section of IE7's Close dialog box is hidden by
> default.
> Give me a check box that says "Automatically approve elevation requests
> for
> the next 10 minutes." That way, I get to approve the first UAC dialog
> box
> and then don't have to worry about a flurry of additional, related UAC
> prompts.
>
> Provide easy options to open Control Panel and/or Explorer with full
> Admin
> rights. As I indicated earlier, it takes only a right-click and a quick
> OK
> to open either of these windows with full permissions. So why not offer
> those options on the Start menu?
>
> This is an especially important change to make for Control Panel. If I
> open
> Control Panel and double-click an icon with the UAC shield, that
> consent
> should transfer to any other action I execute from Control Panel, until
> I
> close the Control Panel window. This feature might work especially well
> in
> tandem with the next suggestion.
>
> Identify applications running in an elevated context. Today, if I open
> two
> Windows Explorer sessions - one as a standard user and another using an
> administrator's process token - I have no way to distinguish which is
> which.
> A text label in the title bar, or a blood-red border around the window,
> would help prevent this convenient shortcut from becoming a security
> hole.
>
> For Command Prompt sessions, this was addressed (too subtly, in my
> opinion)
> in Vista RTM. When you run Cmd.exe as an Administrator, the word
> "Administrator:" appears in front of the window title in the title bar.
> I
> still like the idea of the blood-red border.
>
> As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal
> decisively
> with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff between
> performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many people
> are
> likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone loses."
>
> That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a
> year of
> user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.


I think UAC could stand to be improved a little - by locking it down
even more. There are still some vulnerable areas of the system that are
not protected by UAC. Friendlier messages would help.

Other than that, I think UAC is the best thing to happen to Windows in
a long time. The other thing was making NTFS the default file system for
hard disks.


--
Dzomlija

Peter Alexander Dzomlija
-Do you hear, huh? The Alpha and The Omega? Death and Rebirth? And as
you die, so shall I be Reborn...-

_*Prometheus*_
MOBO: ASUS MB-M3A32-MVP Deluxe/WiFi-AP
CPU: AMD Phenom 9600 Quad
RAM: 2 x A-Data 2GB DDR2-800
GPU: ASUS ATI Radeon HD 2400PRO, 256MB
BOX: Thermaltake Tai-Chi Water Cooled
OS: Windows Vista Ultimate x64
'' (http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=333562)'[image:
http://valid.x86-secret.com/cache/banner/333562.png]'
(http://valid.x86-secret.com/cache/banner/333562.png)
 
MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
'feature' of their software...

"Clear Windows" <carlferedeck@wizzmail.com> wrote in message
news:4840f19f$1@newsgate.x-privat.org...
> UAC is stupid the way it is, nuff said read article:
>
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=461
>
> UAC could certainly have been handled better. It does something the
> security industry has been well aware of for a long time - it creates the
> "cry wolf" problem of popup fatigue (people turn off or ignore the popups
> after awhile). Vista is more secure than XP, despite what others might
> say, but it still gets infected. Since over 80% of all infections are
> based on social engineering, the popups should focus on that weak point.
> If UAC targeted the key areas where people run into trouble (as opposed to
> harassing the user on inane actions), it would be far more helpful and
> potentially make a really significant impact on infection rates.
>
> Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
> people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the third,
> and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes arrive,
> the more annoying the phenomenon.
>
> I was all prepared to lay out my modest proposal for how Microsoft should
> tweak UAC in Windows 7. And then I said, "Hey, wait a minute! I already
> did this."
>
> And sure enough, with a little help from Google I was able to reread "How
> Microsoft can save User Account Control." which I wrote way back in May
> 2006, while Vista was still in beta. In that post, I offered four
> "suggestions that might ease the pain" of UAC. Two years later, I think
> those recommendations are still valid, so I'm reprinting them here, with a
> little updated commentary on each one:
>
> Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option
> that lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily open
> a session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil is in
> the details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this option
> as the default?
>
> I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
> implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance
> Consent mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching into
> silent consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2: Taming
> UAC), but that setting is persistent, in the current session and in future
> sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal behavior, I've made
> myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The default settings could
> exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time - say, 15 minutes - in
> which I take no activity that would have required UAC approval.
>
> Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process.
> When that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what
> if a UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes? Long
> enough to install a couple of programs or make a series of system tweaks,
> but not so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of malware.
>
> I think this should be an option in every UAC dialog box. It can be
> hidden, just as the Options section of IE7's Close dialog box is hidden by
> default. Give me a check box that says "Automatically approve elevation
> requests for the next 10 minutes." That way, I get to approve the first
> UAC dialog box and then don't have to worry about a flurry of additional,
> related UAC prompts.
>
> Provide easy options to open Control Panel and/or Explorer with full Admin
> rights. As I indicated earlier, it takes only a right-click and a quick OK
> to open either of these windows with full permissions. So why not offer
> those options on the Start menu?
>
> This is an especially important change to make for Control Panel. If I
> open Control Panel and double-click an icon with the UAC shield, that
> consent should transfer to any other action I execute from Control Panel,
> until I close the Control Panel window. This feature might work especially
> well in tandem with the next suggestion.
>
> Identify applications running in an elevated context. Today, if I open two
> Windows Explorer sessions - one as a standard user and another using an
> administrator's process token - I have no way to distinguish which is
> which. A text label in the title bar, or a blood-red border around the
> window, would help prevent this convenient shortcut from becoming a
> security hole.
>
> For Command Prompt sessions, this was addressed (too subtly, in my
> opinion) in Vista RTM. When you run Cmd.exe as an Administrator, the word
> "Administrator:" appears in front of the window title in the title bar. I
> still like the idea of the blood-red border.
>
> As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal
> decisively with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff
> between performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many
> people are likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone
> loses."
>
> That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a year
> of user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.
>
>
 
"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
> 'feature' of their software...
>


Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.
 
On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:09 +0100, "Gordon"
<gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>> 'feature' of their software...
>>

>
>Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.


Doesn't annoy me either - I clicked it OFF and forgot about it.
 
"Gordon" <gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:g1qume$iu0$1@news.mixmin.net...
> "Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
> news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>> 'feature' of their software...
>>

>
> Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.


Doesn't annoy me either. I turned it off as soon as I had Vista installed
and that's the way it has stayed ever since. Too damned annoying switched
on.

Trev
 
You and millions of other people...

they just turn it off or press the yes button automatically without
thinking...

this is by no means any serious security measure... but now Microsoft can
blame the user for pressing the uac yes button
and giving access to is very insecure underlying structure.


Vista is crap and its unfixable... I have been saying this since it was
released.. and guess what? MS isnt trying to fix vista that much,
its just abandoning it and going on to windows 7 just like I said they would



"Nonny" <nonnymoose@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ej2244hjeavp4kf8gp4h86e1uid5iajcsb@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:09 +0100, "Gordon"
> <gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>>news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>>> 'feature' of their software...
>>>

>>
>>Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.

>
> Doesn't annoy me either - I clicked it OFF and forgot about it.
 
> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.

yes I know, I posted that article here when It first appeared.

have I said before that vista is stupid? OH YEAH JUST ABOUT A TRILLION
TIMES! lol





"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ek#sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
> 'feature' of their software...
>
> "Clear Windows" <carlferedeck@wizzmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4840f19f$1@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>> UAC is stupid the way it is, nuff said read article:
>>
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=461
>>
>> UAC could certainly have been handled better. It does something the
>> security industry has been well aware of for a long time - it creates the
>> "cry wolf" problem of popup fatigue (people turn off or ignore the popups
>> after awhile). Vista is more secure than XP, despite what others might
>> say, but it still gets infected. Since over 80% of all infections are
>> based on social engineering, the popups should focus on that weak point.
>> If UAC targeted the key areas where people run into trouble (as opposed
>> to harassing the user on inane actions), it would be far more helpful and
>> potentially make a really significant impact on infection rates.
>>
>> Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
>> people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the third,
>> and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes arrive,
>> the more annoying the phenomenon.
>>
>> I was all prepared to lay out my modest proposal for how Microsoft should
>> tweak UAC in Windows 7. And then I said, "Hey, wait a minute! I already
>> did this."
>>
>> And sure enough, with a little help from Google I was able to reread "How
>> Microsoft can save User Account Control." which I wrote way back in May
>> 2006, while Vista was still in beta. In that post, I offered four
>> "suggestions that might ease the pain" of UAC. Two years later, I think
>> those recommendations are still valid, so I'm reprinting them here, with
>> a little updated commentary on each one:
>>
>> Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option
>> that lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily
>> open a session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil
>> is in the details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this
>> option as the default?
>>
>> I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
>> implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance
>> Consent mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching
>> into silent consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2:
>> Taming UAC), but that setting is persistent, in the current session and
>> in future sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal
>> behavior, I've made myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The
>> default settings could exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time -
>> say, 15 minutes - in which I take no activity that would have required
>> UAC approval.
>>
>> Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process.
>> When that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what
>> if a UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes?
>> Long enough to install a couple of programs or make a series of system
>> tweaks, but not so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of
>> malware.
>>
>> I think this should be an option in every UAC dialog box. It can be
>> hidden, just as the Options section of IE7's Close dialog box is hidden
>> by default. Give me a check box that says "Automatically approve
>> elevation requests for the next 10 minutes." That way, I get to approve
>> the first UAC dialog box and then don't have to worry about a flurry of
>> additional, related UAC prompts.
>>
>> Provide easy options to open Control Panel and/or Explorer with full
>> Admin rights. As I indicated earlier, it takes only a right-click and a
>> quick OK to open either of these windows with full permissions. So why
>> not offer those options on the Start menu?
>>
>> This is an especially important change to make for Control Panel. If I
>> open Control Panel and double-click an icon with the UAC shield, that
>> consent should transfer to any other action I execute from Control Panel,
>> until I close the Control Panel window. This feature might work
>> especially well in tandem with the next suggestion.
>>
>> Identify applications running in an elevated context. Today, if I open
>> two Windows Explorer sessions - one as a standard user and another using
>> an administrator's process token - I have no way to distinguish which is
>> which. A text label in the title bar, or a blood-red border around the
>> window, would help prevent this convenient shortcut from becoming a
>> security hole.
>>
>> For Command Prompt sessions, this was addressed (too subtly, in my
>> opinion) in Vista RTM. When you run Cmd.exe as an Administrator, the word
>> "Administrator:" appears in front of the window title in the title bar. I
>> still like the idea of the blood-red border.
>>
>> As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal
>> decisively with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff
>> between performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many
>> people are likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone
>> loses."
>>
>> That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a year
>> of user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.
>>
>>

>
>
 
tweakuac it's a small free tool that allows one more mode >>>

ON, but SILENT

see here

http://www.tweak-uac.com/

If you've used TweakUAC, you've seen the "quiet" option it offers that lets
you suppress the elevation prompts of UAC without turning the UAC off
completely. In such a mode, you keep all the positive effects of UAC, such
as Internet Explorer operating in the protected mode, applications starting
without the administrative privileges by default, etc. The only thing that
gets changed is that you will no longer see the infamous "Windows needs your
permission to continue" messages whenever you attempt to make a change to
your Vista configuration, or when you run a program that needs
administrative rights.

However, reading what other people wrote about TweakUAC in their articles
and blogs, I often see comments suggesting that using TweakUAC to operate
UAC in the "quiet" mode makes your system less secure. Such comments show
that there is a lot of confusion about how UAC works and what it is
protecting the system from. Let me try to clarify it a bit here.

I can see how the confusion may occur: whenever someone is presented with
the "Windows needs your permission to continue" message, it creates the
impression that UAC is looking after the user, and protects the vital system
settings from being destroyed or corrupted. The user is probably thinking,
"If a virus or spyware gets into my system and attempts to do something
dangerous, UAC will alert me, right?" Wrong.

There is only one single "moment of truth" when it comes to malware getting
unlimited access to your system, and it occurs when you attempt to run a
program you have downloaded from an unknown web site:








"Patrician" <ghj290@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:BC67908B-08FC-4EC7-83C7-2FFB2F8E0DFA@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "Gordon" <gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:g1qume$iu0$1@news.mixmin.net...
>> "Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>> news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>>> 'feature' of their software...
>>>

>>
>> Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.

>
> Doesn't annoy me either. I turned it off as soon as I had Vista installed
> and that's the way it has stayed ever since. Too damned annoying switched
> on.
>
> Trev
>
>
 
tweakuac it's a small free tool that allows one more mode >>>

ON, but SILENT

see here

http://www.tweak-uac.com/

If you've used TweakUAC, you've seen the "quiet" option it offers that lets
you suppress the elevation prompts of UAC without turning the UAC off
completely. In such a mode, you keep all the positive effects of UAC, such
as Internet Explorer operating in the protected mode, applications starting
without the administrative privileges by default, etc. The only thing that
gets changed is that you will no longer see the infamous "Windows needs your
permission to continue" messages whenever you attempt to make a change to
your Vista configuration, or when you run a program that needs
administrative rights.

However, reading what other people wrote about TweakUAC in their articles
and blogs, I often see comments suggesting that using TweakUAC to operate
UAC in the "quiet" mode makes your system less secure. Such comments show
that there is a lot of confusion about how UAC works and what it is
protecting the system from. Let me try to clarify it a bit here.

I can see how the confusion may occur: whenever someone is presented with
the "Windows needs your permission to continue" message, it creates the
impression that UAC is looking after the user, and protects the vital system
settings from being destroyed or corrupted. The user is probably thinking,
"If a virus or spyware gets into my system and attempts to do something
dangerous, UAC will alert me, right?" Wrong.

There is only one single "moment of truth" when it comes to malware getting
unlimited access to your system, and it occurs when you attempt to run a
program you have downloaded from an unknown web site:







"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ek#sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
> 'feature' of their software...
>
> "Clear Windows" <carlferedeck@wizzmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4840f19f$1@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>> UAC is stupid the way it is, nuff said read article:
>>
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=461
>>
>> UAC could certainly have been handled better. It does something the
>> security industry has been well aware of for a long time - it creates the
>> "cry wolf" problem of popup fatigue (people turn off or ignore the popups
>> after awhile). Vista is more secure than XP, despite what others might
>> say, but it still gets infected. Since over 80% of all infections are
>> based on social engineering, the popups should focus on that weak point.
>> If UAC targeted the key areas where people run into trouble (as opposed
>> to harassing the user on inane actions), it would be far more helpful and
>> potentially make a really significant impact on infection rates.
>>
>> Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
>> people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the third,
>> and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes arrive,
>> the more annoying the phenomenon.
>>
>> I was all prepared to lay out my modest proposal for how Microsoft should
>> tweak UAC in Windows 7. And then I said, "Hey, wait a minute! I already
>> did this."
>>
>> And sure enough, with a little help from Google I was able to reread "How
>> Microsoft can save User Account Control." which I wrote way back in May
>> 2006, while Vista was still in beta. In that post, I offered four
>> "suggestions that might ease the pain" of UAC. Two years later, I think
>> those recommendations are still valid, so I'm reprinting them here, with
>> a little updated commentary on each one:
>>
>> Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option
>> that lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily
>> open a session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil
>> is in the details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this
>> option as the default?
>>
>> I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
>> implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance
>> Consent mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching
>> into silent consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2:
>> Taming UAC), but that setting is persistent, in the current session and
>> in future sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal
>> behavior, I've made myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The
>> default settings could exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time -
>> say, 15 minutes - in which I take no activity that would have required
>> UAC approval.
>>
>> Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process.
>> When that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what
>> if a UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes?
>> Long enough to install a couple of programs or make a series of system
>> tweaks, but not so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of
>> malware.
>>
>> I think this should be an option in every UAC dialog box. It can be
>> hidden, just as the Options section of IE7's Close dialog box is hidden
>> by default. Give me a check box that says "Automatically approve
>> elevation requests for the next 10 minutes." That way, I get to approve
>> the first UAC dialog box and then don't have to worry about a flurry of
>> additional, related UAC prompts.
>>
>> Provide easy options to open Control Panel and/or Explorer with full
>> Admin rights. As I indicated earlier, it takes only a right-click and a
>> quick OK to open either of these windows with full permissions. So why
>> not offer those options on the Start menu?
>>
>> This is an especially important change to make for Control Panel. If I
>> open Control Panel and double-click an icon with the UAC shield, that
>> consent should transfer to any other action I execute from Control Panel,
>> until I close the Control Panel window. This feature might work
>> especially well in tandem with the next suggestion.
>>
>> Identify applications running in an elevated context. Today, if I open
>> two Windows Explorer sessions - one as a standard user and another using
>> an administrator's process token - I have no way to distinguish which is
>> which. A text label in the title bar, or a blood-red border around the
>> window, would help prevent this convenient shortcut from becoming a
>> security hole.
>>
>> For Command Prompt sessions, this was addressed (too subtly, in my
>> opinion) in Vista RTM. When you run Cmd.exe as an Administrator, the word
>> "Administrator:" appears in front of the window title in the title bar. I
>> still like the idea of the blood-red border.
>>
>> As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal
>> decisively with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff
>> between performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many
>> people are likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone
>> loses."
>>
>> That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a year
>> of user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.
>>
>>

>
>
 
Clear Windows wrote:
> You and millions of other people...
>
> they just turn it off or press the yes button automatically without
> thinking...
>
> this is by no means any serious security measure... but now Microsoft
> can blame the user for pressing the uac yes button
> and giving access to is very insecure underlying structure.
>
>
> Vista is crap and its unfixable... I have been saying this since it was
> released.. and guess what? MS isnt trying to fix vista that much,
> its just abandoning it and going on to windows 7 just like I said they
> would


From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even
more hardware to run properly. It's time to abandon Windows and learn Linux.

Alias
>
>
>
> "Nonny" <nonnymoose@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ej2244hjeavp4kf8gp4h86e1uid5iajcsb@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:09 +0100, "Gordon"
>> <gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> "Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>>> news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>>>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>>>> 'feature' of their software...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.

>>
>> Doesn't annoy me either - I clicked it OFF and forgot about it.

>
 
>>Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.
>
> Doesn't annoy me either - I clicked it OFF and forgot about it.


I think whoever designed UAC will cry out loud if he/she read the above
testimony. Actually, that defeated the purpose of UAC. The purpose is to
let user to pause/read/think/take action.

But the interesting thing is, if an educated user does follow that order,
it's less likely for one to install a malware or get infected in the first
place. Many users just click Yes without even reading or thinking anything.

Based on what I have read in this newsgroup, many people feel UAC is ok
because they either turn it off or just click Yes over and over again.

If that is the case, what is the purpose for having UAC in the first place?
People still click without reading and thinking. I guess for some, as long
as it's MS put there, it must be good :)


"Nonny" <nonnymoose@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ej2244hjeavp4kf8gp4h86e1uid5iajcsb@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:09 +0100, "Gordon"
> <gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>>news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>>> 'feature' of their software...
>>>

>>
>>Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.

>
> Doesn't annoy me either - I clicked it OFF and forgot about it.
 
> From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even more
> hardware to run properly.


Depends on what you read and who you choose to believe. Microsoft say
otherwise.

"In fact, one of our design goals for Windows 7 is that it will run on the
recommended hardware we specified for Windows Vista and that the
applications and devices that work with Windows Vista will be compatible
with Windows 7."

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/communicating-windows-7.aspx

--
Regards

John Waller
 
"Clear Windows" <carlferedeck@wizzmail.com> wrote [heavily edited]:

> Absolutely right. A single request for permission doesn't bother most
> people. What gets under the skin is the second UAC prompt, and the third,
> and the fourth, and so on. The closer together those dialog boxes arrive,
> the more annoying the phenomenon.


When the first reports of UAC surfaced my reaction was that Microsoft, after
so many years, had finally understood that it's not a good idea to have only
two real user classes: the overprivileged and the underprivileged.
Unfortunately, as you note, MS botched the design, demonstrating yet again
that it doesn't understand the real world.


> Create a special Admin Mode. Power users would appreciate a UAC option
> that lets an administrator respond to a single prompt and temporarily open
> a session that runs with full administrative permissions. The devil is in
> the details, of course. How do you keep people from choosing this option
> as the default?


NOT, one hopes, exclusively through a domain group policy. Far too much of
Microsoft's product line assumes that the end user is part of a Microsoft
domain, and that the domain covers every machine on the user's network. BTW:
note that you can also run a privileged Explorer -- just remember to start
it as a separate process if you don't it will become a new instance of the
existing (unprivileged) Explorer process.

> I sure hope someone at Microsoft has been actively working on a way to
> implement this type of behavior, which I like to think of as Advance
> Consent mode. In Vista as it exists today, I can do this by switching into
> silent consent mode (as I describe in Fixing Windows Vista, Part 2: Taming
> UAC), but that setting is persistent, in the current session and in future
> sessions. If I forget to switch UAC back to its normal behavior, I've made
> myself more vulnerable to a variety of attacks. The default settings could
> exit Advance Consent mode after a specified time - say, 15 minutes - in
> which I take no activity that would have required UAC approval.
>
> Put a time limit on UAC. [E]ach UAC prompt is tied to a single process.
> When that process ends, so does the elevated set of permissions. But what
> if a UAC consent dialog box elevated your permissions for 10 minutes? Long
> enough to install a couple of programs or make a series of system tweaks,
> but not so long that you forget and fall victim to a piece of malware.


I'm not sure I would buy that approach, especially if it's relatively easy
to invoke. You might, for example, have a bit of nasty malware sitting on
your machine where it wakes up every five minutes, tests to see if the
machine is running in autoelevation mode, and if not, going back to sleep.
Once it finds autoelevation enabled, it releases its payload and your system
is pwned. (One approach to mitigate this might be to make it impossible for
a nonprivileged thread to determine the autoelevation status, but I wouldn't
put any money on Microsoft bothering to implement the idea.)

Having said that...we definitely need *something* to provide a mechanism to
support situations where the user would otherwise be bombarded with UAC
challenges. Perhaps a requirement for presentation of local administrator
credentials (even if already logged in with local administrator rights) plus
a dialog box with Dire Warnings -- and no way to diable the requirement --
would make it less likely that users would casually disable the protection
provided by UAC. Running in audit mode satisfies this need, but that
approach comes with its own problems.

One other item: I design the support for thousands of Windows systems in a
world-wide environment. One of the high-irritation-value problems with UAC
is that if I, acting as the authorized agent of my employer, declare that
such-and-so program is to be run on my employer's systems, the user is still
presented with the UAC challenge - even if I don't want the user to be able
to prevent the program from running. I should be able to code-sign the
programs with an employer-generated PKI certificate, preload the appropriate
employer-generated public certificates into the system certificate stores to
establish the validation chain, and have the UAC logic detect this and
quietly elevate privileges regardless of any other settings. This is
(obviously) not an issue for the non-enterprise user -- but one of
Microsoft's problems is that many enterprise users are showing little
interest in jumping onto the Vista bandwagon.


> As I noted in that original May 2006 post, "Microsoft has to deal
> decisively with the perception that UAC imposes an unacceptable tradeoff
> between performance and security. In its current incarnation, too many
> people are likely to dismiss it completely, and if that happens, everyone
> loses."
>
> That plea fell on deaf ears two years ago. Maybe, after more than a year
> of user complaints and frustration, someone is finally ready to listen.


Good luck.

Joe Morris
 
John Waller wrote:
>> From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even
>> more hardware to run properly.

>
> Depends on what you read and who you choose to believe. Microsoft say
> otherwise.
>
> "In fact, one of our design goals for Windows 7 is that it will run on
> the recommended hardware we specified for Windows Vista and that the
> applications and devices that work with Windows Vista will be compatible
> with Windows 7."
>
> http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/communicating-windows-7.aspx
>
>


And you believe them? Note, the quote says "goals" which leaves wiggle
room for something else. Considering that MS' versions of Windows
required higher end hardware for each and every one, why do you think
Win 7 will be any different? Would you bet the farm on it?

Alias
 
On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:09 +0100, "Gordon"
<gbplinux@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>"Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net> wrote in message
>news:ek%23sl7uwIHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>> They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>> 'feature' of their software...
>>

>
>Doesn't annoy me - I just click and forget.


UAC is an insult to intelligent users. Kind of like a trained chimp
that will sit in front of a little door waiting for a treat he knows
opens if he pushes the right button.
 
On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:05:01 +0930, "John Waller"
<johnw@REMOVETHISpinnacleweb.com.au> wrote:

>> From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even more
>> hardware to run properly.

>
>Depends on what you read and who you choose to believe. Microsoft say
>otherwise.
>
>"In fact, one of our design goals for Windows 7 is that it will run on the
>recommended hardware we specified for Windows Vista and that the
>applications and devices that work with Windows Vista will be compatible
>with Windows 7."
>
>http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/communicating-windows-7.aspx



So that sounds like version seven will be Vista with a new paint job
and maybe add more eye candy like touch screen control. Under the hood
UAC will still be broken, the bloat will increase by 30% and Microsoft
will still ignore fixing things like sluggish file transfers.

Heck why change now, Microsoft has got away with dicking around for
over twenty years and not once really rebuilding Windows from the
ground up. Just more same old, same old.

Idiots like Frank will have one wet dream after another over it and
sit with his legs crossed mindlessly clapping with spittle dripping
down his chin just like he does now.

Hint: Microsoft depends on idiots like Frank. Dopes like him are
Microsoft's target audience.
 
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:21:21 -0600, "Not Me" <cargod01@bresnan.net>
wrote:

>MS said they made UAC irritating on purpose.
>They obviously don't know what real users do when they are annoyed by a
>'feature' of their software...


Microsoft doesn't care. As long as they win the hearts and "minds" of
retards like Frank, they will sell enough copies of Windows to keep
the bottom line fat.
 
"Alias" <iamalias@NOSPAMPLEASEgmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1rh6g$s22$1@aioe.org...
> John Waller wrote:
>>> From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even
>>> more hardware to run properly.

>>
>> Depends on what you read and who you choose to believe. Microsoft say
>> otherwise.
>>
>> "In fact, one of our design goals for Windows 7 is that it will run on
>> the recommended hardware we specified for Windows Vista and that the
>> applications and devices that work with Windows Vista will be compatible
>> with Windows 7."
>>
>> http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/05/27/communicating-windows-7.aspx

>
> And you believe them? Note, the quote says "goals" which leaves wiggle
> room for something else. Considering that MS' versions of Windows required
> higher end hardware for each and every one, why do you think Win 7 will be
> any different? Would you bet the farm on it?
>
> Alias



Spreading FUD again?

--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
"John Waller" <johnw@REMOVETHISpinnacleweb.com.au> wrote in message
news:OA0LArxwIHA.5096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> From what I've read, Windows 7 will be more bloated and require even more
>> hardware to run properly.

>
> Depends on what you read and who you choose to believe. Microsoft say
> otherwise.


sure it will, they're already saying so:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24876374/
"The new operating system, called Windows 7, is being built upon the current
one, Windows Vista"

If that's the case, I seriously doubt it will be smaller - ie it will be
even MORE bloated, and STILL just a rehash of the same existing sloppy code.
I wonder if the "Fonts" dialog from WFWGs 3.11 will still be in Windows 7.
$50 says it will... too funny. and the fanboys will eat it up.
 
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