gere8888

This is not the language of an IT-expert. Govern your tongue. Before I buy something new I will try to understand the bottom of the problem. Otherwise I will end up like you changing cards from one PCI slot to another without any result. Furthermore I will tell companies that I believe that they do not adhere close enough to the PCI Specification which would be a great advantage for customers.

This is not the end of the story but most probably the end of what you understand. I am waiting for your answer. Without the said PCI-IDE-Controller no freezing happens to the bios and then of course it is possible to access the Advanced Bios Settings via "Strg. + F1". If you had really understood what I wrote you never would have made the suggestion with the 3,3 V card. First of all because I wrote that it is a 5 V card. Secondarily because it is not possible to plug a 3,3 V card into a 5 V PCI slot. This problem has a lot to do with specification and the lake of knowledge from the side of the Gigabyte-Support who answered that these motherboards adhere to PCI 2.3 and therefore 3,3 Volt but on the Gigabyte-Internet pages is written that the PCI slots comply to PCI 2.2. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. Excerpt from the PCI Local Bus Specification, Revision 2.3, as the production version effective March 29, 2002: "The PCI Local Bus Specification, Rev. 2.3, includes the protocol, electrical, mechanical, and configuration specification for PCI Local Bus components and add-in cards. The electrical definition provides for 3.3V and 5V signaling environments. The PCI Local Bus specifies both the 3.3 volt and 5 volt signaling requirements and this revision no longer supports 5 volt only keyed add-in cards, which represents a significant step in the migration path to the 3.3 volt signaling environment. The PCI electrical definition provides for both 3.3V and 5V signaling environments. These should not be confused with 3.3V and 5V component technologies. A "3.3V component" can be designed to work in a 5V signaling environment and vice versa; component technologies can be mixed in either signaling environment. The signaling environments cannot be mixed; all components on a given PCI bus must use the same signaling convention of 3.3V or 5V. PCI defines two system add-in card connectors−one for the 3.3V signaling environment and one for the 5V signaling environment−and two add-in card electrical types, as shown in Figure 4-1. In the interest of facilitating the transition to the 3.3V signaling environment, the 5V keyed add-in card is no longer supported. Support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards but is expected to be removed from future versions of this specification. The connector keying system prevents an add-in card from being inserted into an inappropriate slot." The Gigabyte-Support answered: "These motherboards support specification PCI 2.3 and therefore 3.3 volt." But this "therefore" is wrong because the specification PCI 2.3 explicitly says that support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards. I also asked AOpen-Support a question regarding the 5Volt-PCI-connectors on the motherboard AX4C Max. The AOpen-Support answered: "This board does not support PCI-cards with 5.0 Volt as the 5Volt cards are to old! Therefore we do not support any request regarding these cards." AOpen-Support refuses to give any technical related answer to which PCI-Specification the PCI slots on the motherboard AX4C Max adheres argueing that the 5 Volt cards are to old. What a nonsense. Specification PCI 2.3 explicitly requests that support for the system 5V signaling environment is retained in this specification for backward compatibility with the many 5V keyed add-in cards. This question has more to do with Specification than you can imagine.

I did not even know that there are BIOS which allow to change the setting to the lower specification PCI 2.1 manually. But these modern motherboards like GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 do not offer such a feature as far as I know. Besides: If I press "F1" (General Help) or "STRG + F1", then the BIOS freezes. All Advanced Options of the BIOS, reachable by pressing "STRG + F1", are not accessible because of the freezing. So even if the Bios of these Gigabyte motherboards would have this feature I would not be able to use it. Please tell me at least one motherboard of whom you know that the BIOS supported to lower to PCI 2.1.

The Gigabyte-Support answered: Answer - 346478 Answer : Sehr geehrter Kunde (Dear customer), vielen Dank für Ihre e-Mail (Thank you for your email). Wir können leider keinen Suport für diese alten Produkte von anderen Herstellern leisten (We are not able to offer support for such old products of other companies). Mit freundlichen Grüßen (With regards) Gigabyte-Team Why is the Support not able to give a technical answer? I asked another question: Please tell me for the motherboards GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 whether the PCI-connectors are suitable for 5V- or 3,3V-cards. I received the following answer: Answer - 349692 Answer : Sehr geehrter Herr xxxx (Dear Mr. xxxx), diese Mainboards unterstützten den PCI 2.3 Standart und somit 3,3 Volt (these motherboards support specification PCI 2.3 and therefore 3.3 volt). Mit freundlichem Gruß (Best regards) Gigabyte Support. Two questions arise from this answer: 1.) On the Internet pages is written, that the PCI-slots of GA-K8U and GA-K8VT800 are compliant to PCI 2.2: http://www.gigabyte.de/MotherBoard/Products/Products_GA-K8U.htm or http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/Products/Products_Spec_GA-K8VT800%20(Rev%202.x).htm Expansion Slots 1. 1 x AGP slot (8x/4x-AGP 3.0 compliant), supports 1.5v display card only. 2. 5 x PCI slots (PCI 2.2 compliant) 2.) If the answer from Gigabyte-Support would be true that the PCI-slots on these motherboards are compliant to PCI 2.3 and therefore support 3.3 volt why are then 5V-connectors on these motherboards? The PCI-connectors are 5V-connectors because they have their key on the right side (seen in the mounting position of the mainboard). You can watch the pictures of these motherboards at http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8u_big.jpg and http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/FileList/ProductImage/photo_k8vt800_big.jpg. Watch also the attached image PCI Board Connectors.jpg. The answer of the Gigabyte-Support suggests that specification PCI 2.3 and 3.3V are tied together. But this is not true. True is the following: PCI-2.3 supports: 3,3 V-Connector: Yes 5 V-Connector: Yes 3,3V-only-card: Yes 5 V-only-card: No Universal-card (3,3V/5V): Yes This means that specification PCI 2.3 still supports the 5V signaling level but does no longer support the 5V-only-card.

Silicon Image answered the following: The Sil0680 ("3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O") requires 3.3V power rails to drive the logic so a PCB that is intended for use in a 5V PCI slot would have to limit the supply voltage VDD to 3.3V +_ 10%. It's I/O pins are 5V tolerant so they can work with the 5V PCI signal levels without damage to the part.

This is what the AOpen-Support repeatedly answered: Dear xxxx, This board does not support PCI-cards with 5.0 Volt as the 5Volt cards are to old! Therefore we do not support any request regarding these cards. Kind regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Met vriendelijke groet, AOE-FAE visit us at http://www.aopen.nl Now I read something on http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/conventional/conventional_pci_23 Conventional PCI 2.3 - An Evolution of the Conventional PCI Local Bus Specification Revision 2.3 is an evolutionary change to the PCI Local Bus Specification. Revision 2.3 makes a significant step in migrating the PCI bus from the original 5.0 volt signaling to a 3.3 volt signaling bus. Revision 2.3 supports the 5V and 3.3V keyed system board connectors (as did revision 2.2) but revision 2.3 supports only the 3.3V and Universal keyed add-in cards. The 5V keyed add-in card is not supported in revision 2.3. PCI 66, PCI-X, Mini PCI, and Low Profile PCI support only 3.3 volt signaling on 3.3V keyed system board connectors and 3.3V and Universal keyed add-in cards. High performance technologies power the logic within the chips with 3.3 or lower voltages. The newer high performance technologies cannot support 5 volt compatible signaling on the off-chip drivers. As a result, the host bridge needs to migrate to 3.3 volt signaling with 3.3V keyed system board connectors. Removing support for 5V keyed add-in cards is the first step in the migration to 3.3 volt signaling systems and ensures revision 2.3 compliant add-in cards will be usable in 3.3V keyed system board connectors. In addition to the changes described above, revision 2.3 also incorporates other ECNs and approved errata. Compliance to Revision 2.3 will be required no later than January 1st, 2004. PCI-2.3 supports: 3,3 V-Connector: Yes 5 V-Connector: Yes 3,3V-only-card: Yes 5 V-only-card: No Universal-card (3,3V/5V): Yes This leads to the problem that old 5V-only-cards plugged into a 5V-PCI-2.3-connector do not work. This could be an explanation which would make sense. But until now AOpen-Support did not answer the question to which specification (PCI 2.2, 2.3 or 3.0) the PCI-Slots are compliant to on the motherboard AOpen AX4C Max.

In the PCI Local Bus Specification / Revision: 2.2 / December 18, 1998 I found the following: PCI-2.2, page 114: PCI components on the Universal board must use I/O buffers that can be compliant with either the 5V or 3,3 V signaling environment. While there are multiple buffer implementations that can achieve this dual environment compliance, it is intended that they be dual voltage buffers; i. e., capable of operating from either power rail. They should be powered from “I/O” designated power pins [27] on PCI connectors that will always be connected to the power rail associated with the signaling environment in use. This means that in the 5V signaling environment, these buffers are powered on the 5V rail. When the same board is plugged into a 3,3V connector, these buffers are powered on the 3,3V rail. This enables the Universal Board to be compliant with either signaling environment. The intent of this transition approach is to move 5V component technology into the 3,3V signaling environment, rather than forcing 3,3V component technology to operate in a 5V signaling environment. While the later can be done, it is more difficult and more expensive, especially in an unterminated, modular bus environment. The preferred alternative – moving 5V components into a 3,3 V signaling environment – can be done without any incremental cost, and has, in addition, some signal performance benefits. All new component designs are recommended to use the dual voltage buffers. All new expansion boards are recommended to be Universal boards. This allows expansion boards based on 5V component technology to be used in both 5V and 3,3V systems, thus enabling the move to 3,3V systems. [27]: While the primary goal of the PCI 5V to 3,3V transition strategy is to spare vendors the burden and expense of implementing 3,3V parts that are “5V tolerant”, such parts are not excluded. If a PCI component of this type is used on the Universal board, its I/O buffers may optionally be connected to the “I/O” designated power pins; but high clamp diodes must still be connected to the “I/O” designated power pins. (Refer to the last paragraph of Section 4.2.1.2. – “Clamping directly to the 3,3V rail with a simple diode must never be used in the 5V signaling environment.”) Since the effective operation of these high clamp diodes may be critical to both signal quality and device reliability, the designer must provide enough extra “I/O” designated power pins on a component to handle the current spikes associated with the 5V maximum AC waveforms (Section 4.2.1.3.). 3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O just means that such a chip could be used to for the 3,3V signaling environment as well as for the 5V signaling environment.

I tried both motherboards since I wanted to upgrade my computer. Twice I ended up with the same problem. I plugged the CSA-649U Ultra IDE Controller BIOS Version 1.9.14 into any PCI-Slot. The datasheet of the SiI 0649 Ultra ATA100 PCI-to-ATA Host Controller says the following: PCI Bus • 32-bit, 33 MHz • PCI 2.1 compliant Power • 3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O • ACPI: PCI Bus Power Management Spec 1.1 compliant If I press "F1" (General Help) or "STRG + F1", then the BIOS freezes. All Advanced Options of the BIOS are not accessible. At http://www.gigabyte.de/MotherBoard/Products/Products_GA-K8U.htm or http://www.gigabyte.de/Motherboard/Products/Products_Spec_GA-K8VT800%20(Rev%202.x).htm the following is explained: Expansion Slots 1. 1 x AGP slot (8x/4x-AGP 3.0 compliant), supports 1.5v display card only. 2. 5 x PCI slots (PCI 2.2 compliant) In the PCI Local Bus Specification / Revision 2.2 / December 18,1998 I found the following: PCI-2.2, page ii: Revision history shows that with revision 2.0, date 4/30/93, connector and expansion board Specification were incorporated. Since then connector Specification did not change. PCI-2.2, page 3: To provide a quick and easy transition from 5V to 3,3V component technology, PCI defines two add-in board connectors: one for the 5V signaling environment and one for the 3,3 V signaling environment. (…) To accommodate the 5V and 3,3V signaling environment and to facilitate a smooth migration path between the voltages, three add-in board electrical types are specified: a “5 volt” board which plugs into only the 5V connector, a “universal” board which plugs into both 5V and 3,3V connectors, and a “3,3 volt” board which plugs into only the 3,3V connector. PCI-2.2, page 113: The PCI electrical definition provides for both 5V and 3,3V signaling environments. These should not be confused with 5V and 3,3V component technologies. A “5V component” can be designed to work in a 3,3V signaling environment and vice versa; component technologies can be mixed in either signaling environment. The signaling environments cannot be mixed; all components on a given PCI bus must use the same signaling convention of 5V or 3,3V. One goal of the PCI electrical specification is to provide a quick an easy transition from 5V to 3,3V component technology. In order to facilitate this transition, PCI defines two expansion board connectors – one for 5V signaling environment and one for the 3,3V signaling environment – and three board electrical types, as shown in Figure 4-1. A connector keying system prevents a board from beeing inserted into an appropriate slot. The motherboard (including connectors) defines the signaling environment for the bus, whether it be 5V or 3,3V. The 5V expansion board is designed to work only in a 5V signaling environment and, therefore, can only be plugged into the 5V connector. Similarly, the 3,3V expansion board is designed to work only in the 3,3V signaling environment. However, the Universal expansion board is capable of detecting the signaling environment in use and adapting itself to that environment. It can, therefore, be plugged into either connector type. All three board types define connections to both 5 V and 3,3V power supplies and may contain either 5V and/or 3,3V components. The distinction between board types is the signaling protocol they use, not the power rails they connect to nor the component technology they contain. PCI-2.2, page 114: PCI components on the Universal board must use I/O buffers that can be compliant with either the 5V or 3,3 V signaling environment. While there are multiple buffer implementations that can achieve this dual environment compliance, it is intended that they be dual voltage buffers; i. e., capable of operating from either power rail. They should be powered from “I/O” designated power pins on PCI connectors that will always be connected to the power rail associated with the signaling environment in use. This means that in the 5V signaling environment, these buffers are powered on the 5V rail. When the same board is plugged into a 3,3V connector, these buffers are powered on the 3,3V rail. This enables the Universal Board to be compliant with either signaling environment. The intent of this transition approach is to move 5V component technology into the 3,3V signaling environment, rather than forcing 3,3V component technology to operate in a 5V signaling environment. While the later can be done, it is more difficult and more expensive, especially in an unterminated, modular bus environment. The preferred alternative – moving 5V components into a 3,3 V signaling environment – can be done without any incremental cost, and has, in addition, some signal performance benefits. All new component designs are recommended to use the dual voltage buffers. All new expansion boards are recommended to be Universal boards. This allows expansion boards based on 5V component technology to be used in both 5V and 3,3V systems, thus enabling the move to 3,3V systems. PCI-2.2, page 153: PCI cards and connectors are keyed to manage the 5V to 3,3V transition. The basic 32-bit connector contains 120 pins. The logical numbering of pins shows 124 pin identification numbers, but four pins are not present and are replaced by the keying location. In one orientation, the connector is keyed to accept 5V system signaling environment boards; turned 180 degrees, the key is located to accept 3,3V system signaling environment boards. Universal add-in cards, cards built to work in both 5V and 3,3V signaling environments, have two key slots so that they can plug into either connector. A 64-bit extension, built onto the same connector molding, extends the total number of pins to 184. The 32-bit connector subset defines the system signaling environment. 32-bit cards and 64-bit cards are inter-operable within the system’s signaling voltage classes defined by the keyring in the 32-bit connector subset. A 32-bit card identifies itself for 32-bit transfers on the 64-bit connector. A 64-bit card in a 32-bit connector must configure for 32-bit transfers. As far as I believe the following conclusions can be drawn from this: Since PCI-2.0 in 1993 exists the 5V-connector. And this 5V-connector is still specified in PCI-2.2. According to PCI-2.2-Specification a PCI-2.1-card for the 5V signaling environment should still be working flawless plugged into a PCI-2.2-5V-connector. Which reason(s) could lead to the result that it does partially or entirely not work?

The 1st attached thumbnail shows Figure 4.1: 'PCI Board Connectors' from the document PCI Local Bus / Specification Revision 2.2 / December 18, 1998, page 114 (PCI-2.2). It shows that there is one so called 5V-connector for the 5V signaling environment, and one so called 3,3V-connector for the 3,3V signaling environment. And it shows that there are 3 expansion boards: one expansion board capabel of working with the 5 V signaling environment that fits only in the 5V-connector, one capbable of working with the 3,3 V signaling environment that fits in the 3,3V-connector and one universal expansion board capable of working in both signaling environments that can therefore be plugged in the 5V-connector or the 3,3V-connector. PCI-2.2, page 113: The motherboard (including connectors) defines the signaling environment for the bus, whether it be 5V or 3,3V. The 5V expansion board is designed to work only in a 5V signaling environment and, therefore, can only be plugged into the 5V connector. Similarly, the 3,3V expansion board is designed to work only in the 3,3V signaling environment. However, the Universal expansion board is capable of detecting the signaling environment in use and adapting itself to that environment. It can, therefore, be plugged into either connector type. All three board types define connections to both 5 V and 3,3V power supplies and may contain either 5V and/or 3,3V components. The distinction between board types is the signaling protocol they use, not the power rails they connect to nor the component technology they contain. PCI-2.2, page 137: All PCI connectors require four power rails: +5V, +3,3V, +12V and -12V. Systems that provide PCI connectors are required to provide all four rails in every system with the current budget specified in Table 4-10 (2nd attached thumbnail). PCI-2.2, page 149: Table 4-14: Pin Summary - 32-bit Expansion Board (3rd attached thumbnail). It shows that the 5V Board (Board for the 5V signaling environment) is connected to the 5V and 3,3V rail and the 3,3 V Board (Board for the 3,3V signaling environment) is also connected to the 5V and 3,3V rail. PCI-2.2, page 150: The maximum power allowed for any PCI board is 25 watts, and represents the total power drawn from all power rails provided at the connector (+5V, +3,3V, +VI/O, +12V, -12V, +3,3Vaux). The expansion board may optionally draw all this power from either the +5V or +3,3V rail. This explanation means to me that the Self-Powered PCI that comes in a seperate set of 3,3 volt power circuitry provides 3,3 volt power that is independent from the rest of the motherboard. This should be no reason for a 5V-PCI-2.1-card not to work in a 5V-PCI-2.2-connector. The opposite should be the case: It should work better because of the independent 3,3V power supply. This would be at least what one would await.

The datasheet of my IDE-Controller CSA-649U Ultra IDE Controller BIOS Version 1.9.14 (http://www.verbatim.com.au/technotes/KW571B.pdf: SiI 0649 Ultra ATA100 PCI-to-ATA Host Controller) says the following: PCI Bus • 32-bit, 33 MHz • PCI 2.1 compliant Power • 3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O • ACPI: PCI Bus Power Management Spec 1.1 compliant The PCI-card has its notch on the right side (seen in mounting position) which usually means that it is a 5V-PCI-card. What does this then mean: 3,3V Operating Voltage with 5V tolerant I/O? I need some clarification.

On page 51 of the manual ax4cmax-ol-e.pdf (ftp://ftp.aopen.ru/pub/manual/mb/ax4...4cmax-ol-e.pdf) is written: As independent as Self-Powered PCI is, it comes in a seperate set of 3,3 volt power circuitry which supplies needed current and making it virtually free from the "loading issue" of traditional PCI slot. The document "ink_12_02.pdf" (http://www.lavalink.com/fileadmin/ne...link_12_02.pdf) says the following: PCI 2.1 and 2.2 both define six add-in card configurations, with support for 5, 3.3, and Universal (3.3/5 volt) signaling in both 32-bit and 64-bit bit variants. Each card type is designed with notches, and each connector is designed with ridges, so that cards can "key" with compatible connectors only. On page 19 of the manual ax4cmax-ol-e.pdf (ftp://ftp.aopen.ru/pub/manual/mb/ax4...4cmax-ol-e.pdf) you can see a picture of the motherboard. The PCI-connectors on the motherboard AX4C Max have the ridge on the right side (viewed when the motherboard is installed) which usually means that they are 5V-connectors. What does it mean if in the manual is written that the Self-Powered PCI slot comes in a seperate set of 3,3 Volt power circuitry? I believe that this is a mistake but the support of AOpen answered to my question: Dear xxxx, This slot is specially designed for PCI-cards like a SCSI or RAID cards, as they consume more power then conventional PCI-cards. If you have a older card that has 5V then this card is not supported on this mainboard due that it uses a Lower PCI-version then PCI 2.1. Apologies for the inconvenience Kind regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Met vriendelijke groet, AOE-FAE This answer makes no sense because 5V PCI-connectors are supported up to PCI 2.3 and if the ridge of the PCI-connector is on the right side (viewed when the motherboard is installed) then it must be a 5V-connector. http://www.lavalink.com/fileadmin/ne...ink_12_02.pdf: PCI Revision 2.3 removes 5-volt-only cards from the specification, but retains the 5-volt only motherboard connector. I need some clarification.